Balance Continued…
What began as a debate about whether balance is even possible between Psychochild and me (See: Balance is Impossible | Balance is Possible | Balance is Still Impossible) turned into an email conversation between the two of us. We’re both going to pull pertinent points from our emails, which really stopped arguing whether balance is possible and started talking about balance in general.
I’ve long believed that skill systems aren’t that much more difficult to balance than class systems, they just require an additional element of creativity. In fact, it may be easier to make adjustments to specific skills because you aren’t nerfing an entire class (and therefore a person’s game persona) permanently by changing something. They may have to find a new skill, but you haven’t made them reroll.
Psychochild: “I think M59 is very balanced, especially considering it’s a skill based game. Even after we’ve been running it for over 4 years now, people still debate what is the best build. The smart people are the ones that say it depends on your playstyle.”
The problem with the “it depends on your playstyle” reply to most of the build questions (even though that is the best answer) is that very few players actually know their playstyle. Some people like to tear things up, some people like to help other people out. A lot of people believe they want to be the most uber build, but don’t necessarily realize that it’s not a playstyle they can enjoy. How can we help teach players what playstyle they enjoy?
Morrowind went the route of asking a player questions, but I’m of the belief that very few players answer those honestly (even if they don’t know they’re being dishonest, they answer in the way they feel they should instead of the way their desires want them to). So, you get the suggested role that you *think* is the right one for you to have answered, but really isn’t.
We can have an elaborate newbie introduction that switches the player’s class (in a class game) and has them perform tasks in all the roles, then the player can choose which he likes best. Maybe that’s a better way? How many players would actually use that instead of bypassing it and selecting the class they think they want to play during character creation?
That’s it for now. Psychochild has a follow-up to this reply that he’ll probably be posting on his blog shortly, which I’ll try to respond to in yet another entry later tonight (or tomorrow if I decide to get sidetracked).
Why not just let players switch whenever they want. This was one of the beautiful elements of classic SWG. Or, expressed as classes … every character may have two classes at a time … one class they’re levelling up … one that keeps them useful while they do so. Players will eventually find the playstyle they enjoy and that works for the game.
You might counter that players should just roll an alt for every class they’d like to experiment with (then twink it). It’s not the same. With the ability to slowly migrate classes, you get to maintain your character identity and at least some of your usefulness while you’re working through the process.
I don’t believe you could do an accurate job of placing players by asking them questions during the character creation process. So much of what makes a particular class enjoyable depends on the deep details of the game mechanics. A healer in one game is not the same to play as a healer in another.
[...] Is not!) Darth Vader: Uh huh! Is too! Princess Leia: Look, this is how you do it. Jek Porkins: But what about … [explosion] Darth Vader: I’ll agree that it at leastexists. [...]
Even more on balance…
So, the wielder of the Nerfbat and I got into an email discussion about balance. Ryan posted his side of the conversation (http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158), so not it’s my turn to post my side.
We’ve come to the agreement that “balance” is important…
Tuebit, I fully agree that you should be able to switch classes with a single character. My argument for that is that players tend to identify most with one name, and almost definitely identify most with a single character. Allowing that one character to be any class tends to cure altitis (it did for me in Final Fantasy XI, and I’ve always believed you should let players switch classes since).
A very simple answer to “What is balance?” is first required before any attempt at ‘balancing’ can occur.
But, as previously mentioned, while statistical balance may seem appropriate in theory it isn’t conducive to fun. So balance truly has nothing to do with the ‘balance’ people are looking for from these games. It?s more of a straw man than anything else, a buzzword that truly doesn’t have anything to do with what people yearn to achieve with and for their avatars in these games.
So what is this elusive ‘balance’ we, and so many of our fellow brethren of the chair shaped ass, are looking for???
To be useful. To be needed.
That is the ?balance? the players are looking for. That is what they mean by ?balance?. The vast majority of the screaming we see on forums and in games is due to players perceiving that someone else has become more useful or that someone has trespassed upon their nitch.
In a game where everyone is a hero it is expected by the players that they will always be useful in some way, shape, or form. They are heroes!!! Mighty adventurers and dragon slayers!!! They don?t want to be reduced to spamming a couple of buttons until the loot pi?ata explodes. No way!!!! They want to be reactively, proactively, and interactively directing their avatar through the adventure of a lifetime.
Balance is being needed, useful, and important.
To often this need is reduced to attack numbers, armor rating, defensive ability, mana usage, and any number of arcane numerological paths that not just the developers wallow in. The players wallow in it as well, with great gusto I might add, looking for that elusive ?balance? all the while min/maxing the entire game to death. The mythical beast of ?balance? leads them a merry chase round the bush all the while they truly don?t know that which they are looking for.
Make the avatars needed, useful, important and fun. That?s the only balance you will ever need in these games.
There is also a marked difference sometimes between what you want and what you are good at. When I play pen and paper games with my friends, I want to be the sorceror or the rogue. I want to scout and sneak or blow things up… and I enjoy it when I do. But, I have the most fun and my team enjoys it more when I play fighter and lead people in to battle, barking orders and commanding the field. I’m great at being in charge, but I never want to be in charge.
In EQ, I played a monk… I took it because of the original independant nature of it (I don’t need gear!), but the role I fell into in game most times was puller… and honestly, in EQ, your puller was the group leader. He told you where to stand and decided when and how much to bring to the fight. A good puller controlled the group. I also took to leading raids. Kedge, City of Mist, the Hole, Hate, Fear, Kael, Velketor’s, many others… I never wanted to be in charge, but when I saw other people failing at it, I’d step up and start barking orders.
The point being, if you were to test me, or give me a tutorial, I would almost absolutely choose a class that didn’t fit my true strengths, and instead would augment my tendancy to avoid my strengths.
More on Balance…
It sounds like Nerf and Psycho came to an agreement. I think the answer to the question, “Is allowing more character flexibility the answer?” is “Yes.” Give players the tools and let them do with them as they please. If they …
Balance Continued?
Hey, i couldn’t think of any other better method to reach you.
well, i heard this song and instantly thought of you!
Pirate Song
hope you enjoy it!
[...] nerfbat.com kontynuuje rozwa?ania nad uzyskaniem zbalansowanej gry. [...]
[...] During the recent debate on whether balance in MMORPG?s is possible, Psychochild raised an idea (attributed originally to Raph Koster). Raph pointed out in a blog post or interview somewhere that what he should have done in SWG was allow people to master everything, but make each skill group dependent on some certain item of equipment. You could only equip a limited number of these items at a time, limiting what you could do at once. That way people could shift between skill sets to find their ideal play style. This also allows the player to feel “uber” because they can learn everything even if they can’t do everything at once. More options instead of more raw power. [...]
Thought you might like this little ditty. For Blackguard!
———————————————————————————————
A pirate walked into a bar and the bartender said, “Hey, I haven’t
seen you in a while. What happened? You look terrible.”
“What do you mean?” said the pirate, “I feel fine.”
“What about the wooden leg?” the bartender asks. “You didn’t have that
before.”
“Well, we were in a battle and I got hit with a cannon ball, but I’m
fine now.” says the pirate.
“Well, OK, but what about that hook? What happened to your hand?” asked
the bartender.
“We were in another battle.” replied the pirate. “I boarded a ship and
got into a sword fight My hand was cut off. I got fitted with a hook.
I’m fine, really.”
So the bartender asks, “What about that eye patch?”
The pirate replies, “Oh, one day we were at sea, and a flock of sea gulls
flew over. I looked up and one of them shit in my eye.”
“You’re kid ding, ” said the bartender, “you couldn’t lose an eye just
from bird shit.”
The pirate responds, “It was my first day with the hook.”
——————————————————————————————–
Actually, there is one way to find your favourite play style. Almost all games have some “newb” zones, and usually that zone has some boss-like mobs. For me these mobs always were “a touchstone”, I could see right away at what level can I kill this monster and what tactic is needed.
Even if game designed in a way that some classes can function only in groups – this method will show it immediately, as well as the ability to get a group.
The only problem then is to give enough skills/abilities to the characters at the low levels, but that can be solved.
Not sure if my 2 cents are worth much at this late date, but here they are.
First, I have yet to see a real, working definition for balance. Is it some statistical value? Some perceived measure of usefulness to others? How philosophical are we going to get with this idea of balance? Is the ‘real world’ balanced?
I tend to believe that while on a micro scale things are in a constant state of imbalance. The pendulum swings. Each step we takes requires us to fall forward. We search for the unexploited areas to exploit them. On a macro scale this is balance.
If we were to mirror this in a game then most of the players would be exploited, pwned, nerfed and frustrated. The l33t players would be so busy maintaining their uberness that they would forget why they are evening playing. Eventually they would tire and be replaced.
Maybe warriors’ platemail would mitigate as much damage as it should. The rogues’ attacks would not be able to penetrate it and they would cry imbalance. Maybe the rogues’ sneaking would be even harder for the warrior in platemail to notice. The rogue ambushes the warrior and kills him from hiding with a few, well aimed, or lucky, attacks. Now the warrior is crying for better balance.
Maybe the crying rogues need to set better ambushes. Maybe the crying warrior needs to avoid possible ambush sites. But they both still cry because the warrior can’t go in the woods and rogue can’t go toe-to-toe with the warrior.
I think a good game would cycle. Priests are boring, they can do no damage and only heal, and they’re no fun to solo. Priest population starts dwindling. Everyone is playing oneshot killer, rogues. Then, the clerics are given some cool, nuke-undead spells. The undead are given some see-sneaking-rogue skills. Maybe typical rogue-weapons (daggers and bows) only do 25% damage to zombies. Maybe the new expansion has a lot of undead in it. Priests start becoming popular again. Rogues complain that they’re not powerful enough but the next expansion has lots of traps and locks in it…
Anyway, my 2 cents in the wee hours of the morn.