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	<title>Comments on: Balance Continued&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/</link>
	<description>Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder.</description>
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		<title>By: Hluill</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-9529</link>
		<dc:creator>Hluill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 08:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-9529</guid>
		<description>Not sure if my 2 cents are worth much at this late date, but here they are.  

First, I have yet to see a real, working definition for balance.  Is it some statistical value?  Some perceived measure of usefulness to others?  How philosophical are we going to get with this idea of balance?  Is the &#039;real world&#039; balanced?

I tend to believe that while on a micro scale things are in a constant state of imbalance.  The pendulum swings.  Each step we takes requires us to fall forward.  We search for the unexploited areas to exploit them.  On a macro scale this is balance.

If we were to mirror this in a game then most of the players would be exploited, pwned, nerfed and frustrated.   The l33t players would be so busy maintaining their uberness that they would forget why they are evening playing.  Eventually they would tire and be replaced.

Maybe warriors&#039; platemail would mitigate as much damage as it should.  The rogues&#039; attacks would not be able to penetrate it and they would cry imbalance.  Maybe the rogues&#039; sneaking would be even harder for the warrior in platemail to notice.  The rogue ambushes the warrior and kills him from hiding with a few, well aimed, or lucky, attacks.  Now the warrior is crying for better balance.

Maybe the crying rogues need to set better ambushes.  Maybe the crying warrior needs to avoid possible ambush sites.  But they both still cry because the warrior can&#039;t go in the woods and rogue can&#039;t go toe-to-toe with the warrior.  

I think a good game would cycle.  Priests are boring, they can do no damage and only heal, and they&#039;re no fun to solo.  Priest population starts dwindling.  Everyone is playing oneshot killer, rogues.  Then, the clerics are given some cool, nuke-undead spells.  The undead are given some see-sneaking-rogue skills.  Maybe typical rogue-weapons (daggers and bows) only do 25% damage to zombies.  Maybe the new expansion has a lot of undead in it.  Priests start becoming popular again.  Rogues complain that they&#039;re not powerful enough but the next expansion has lots of traps and locks in it...

Anyway, my 2 cents in the wee hours of the morn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure if my 2 cents are worth much at this late date, but here they are.  </p>
<p>First, I have yet to see a real, working definition for balance.  Is it some statistical value?  Some perceived measure of usefulness to others?  How philosophical are we going to get with this idea of balance?  Is the &#8216;real world&#8217; balanced?</p>
<p>I tend to believe that while on a micro scale things are in a constant state of imbalance.  The pendulum swings.  Each step we takes requires us to fall forward.  We search for the unexploited areas to exploit them.  On a macro scale this is balance.</p>
<p>If we were to mirror this in a game then most of the players would be exploited, pwned, nerfed and frustrated.   The l33t players would be so busy maintaining their uberness that they would forget why they are evening playing.  Eventually they would tire and be replaced.</p>
<p>Maybe warriors&#8217; platemail would mitigate as much damage as it should.  The rogues&#8217; attacks would not be able to penetrate it and they would cry imbalance.  Maybe the rogues&#8217; sneaking would be even harder for the warrior in platemail to notice.  The rogue ambushes the warrior and kills him from hiding with a few, well aimed, or lucky, attacks.  Now the warrior is crying for better balance.</p>
<p>Maybe the crying rogues need to set better ambushes.  Maybe the crying warrior needs to avoid possible ambush sites.  But they both still cry because the warrior can&#8217;t go in the woods and rogue can&#8217;t go toe-to-toe with the warrior.  </p>
<p>I think a good game would cycle.  Priests are boring, they can do no damage and only heal, and they&#8217;re no fun to solo.  Priest population starts dwindling.  Everyone is playing oneshot killer, rogues.  Then, the clerics are given some cool, nuke-undead spells.  The undead are given some see-sneaking-rogue skills.  Maybe typical rogue-weapons (daggers and bows) only do 25% damage to zombies.  Maybe the new expansion has a lot of undead in it.  Priests start becoming popular again.  Rogues complain that they&#8217;re not powerful enough but the next expansion has lots of traps and locks in it&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyway, my 2 cents in the wee hours of the morn.</p>
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		<title>By: Miranta</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-9255</link>
		<dc:creator>Miranta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-9255</guid>
		<description>Actually, there is one way to find your favourite play style. Almost all games have some &quot;newb&quot; zones, and usually that zone has some boss-like mobs. For me these mobs always were &quot;a touchstone&quot;, I could see right away at what level can I kill this monster and what tactic is needed. 
Even if game designed in a way that some classes can function only in groups - this method will show it immediately, as well as the ability to get a group. 
The only problem then is to give enough skills/abilities to the characters at the low levels, but that can be solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, there is one way to find your favourite play style. Almost all games have some &#8220;newb&#8221; zones, and usually that zone has some boss-like mobs. For me these mobs always were &#8220;a touchstone&#8221;, I could see right away at what level can I kill this monster and what tactic is needed.<br />
Even if game designed in a way that some classes can function only in groups &#8211; this method will show it immediately, as well as the ability to get a group.<br />
The only problem then is to give enough skills/abilities to the characters at the low levels, but that can be solved.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-7584</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-7584</guid>
		<description>Thought you might like this little ditty. For Blackguard!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A pirate walked into a bar and the bartender said, &quot;Hey, I haven&#039;t
seen you in a while. What happened?  You look terrible.&quot;

&quot;What do you mean?&quot; said the pirate, &quot;I feel fine.&quot;

&quot;What about the wooden leg?&quot; the bartender asks. &quot;You didn&#039;t have that
before.&quot;

&quot;Well, we were in a battle and I got hit with a cannon ball, but  I&#039;m
fine now.&quot; says the pirate.

&quot;Well, OK, but what about that hook? What happened to your hand?&quot; asked
the bartender.

&quot;We were in another battle.&quot; replied the pirate. &quot;I boarded a ship and
got into a sword fight My hand was cut off. I got fitted with a hook.
I&#039;m fine, really.&quot;

So the bartender asks, &quot;What about that eye patch?&quot;

The pirate replies, &quot;Oh, one day we were at sea, and a flock of sea gulls
flew over. I looked up and one of them shit in my eye.&quot;

&quot;You&#039;re kid ding, &quot; said the bartender, &quot;you couldn&#039;t lose an eye just
from bird shit.&quot;

The pirate responds, &quot;It was my first day with the hook.&quot;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thought you might like this little ditty. For Blackguard!<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
A pirate walked into a bar and the bartender said, &#8220;Hey, I haven&#8217;t<br />
seen you in a while. What happened?  You look terrible.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;What do you mean?&#8221; said the pirate, &#8220;I feel fine.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;What about the wooden leg?&#8221; the bartender asks. &#8220;You didn&#8217;t have that<br />
before.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, we were in a battle and I got hit with a cannon ball, but  I&#8217;m<br />
fine now.&#8221; says the pirate.</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, OK, but what about that hook? What happened to your hand?&#8221; asked<br />
the bartender.</p>
<p>&#8220;We were in another battle.&#8221; replied the pirate. &#8220;I boarded a ship and<br />
got into a sword fight My hand was cut off. I got fitted with a hook.<br />
I&#8217;m fine, really.&#8221;</p>
<p>So the bartender asks, &#8220;What about that eye patch?&#8221;</p>
<p>The pirate replies, &#8220;Oh, one day we were at sea, and a flock of sea gulls<br />
flew over. I looked up and one of them shit in my eye.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;You&#8217;re kid ding, &#8221; said the bartender, &#8220;you couldn&#8217;t lose an eye just<br />
from bird shit.&#8221;</p>
<p>The pirate responds, &#8220;It was my first day with the hook.&#8221;<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
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		<title>By: WorldIV &#187; Skills and Skill Caps</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-7015</link>
		<dc:creator>WorldIV &#187; Skills and Skill Caps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 15:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-7015</guid>
		<description>[...] During the recent debate on whether balance in MMORPG?s is possible, Psychochild raised an idea (attributed originally to Raph Koster). Raph pointed out in a blog post or interview somewhere that what he should have done in SWG was allow people to master everything, but make each skill group dependent on some certain item of equipment. You could only equip a limited number of these items at a time, limiting what you could do at once. That way people could shift between skill sets to find their ideal play style. This also allows the player to feel &#8220;uber&#8221; because they can learn everything even if they can&#8217;t do everything at once. More options instead of more raw power. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color: #444; color: #ddd; border-color: 1px solid #000; padding: 10px;">
<p>[...] During the recent debate on whether balance in MMORPG?s is possible, Psychochild raised an idea (attributed originally to Raph Koster). Raph pointed out in a blog post or interview somewhere that what he should have done in SWG was allow people to master everything, but make each skill group dependent on some certain item of equipment. You could only equip a limited number of these items at a time, limiting what you could do at once. That way people could shift between skill sets to find their ideal play style. This also allows the player to feel &#8220;uber&#8221; because they can learn everything even if they can&#8217;t do everything at once. More options instead of more raw power. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Balans - mo?liwy czy nie? &#171; mmoLog</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-6989</link>
		<dc:creator>Balans - mo?liwy czy nie? &#171; mmoLog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-6989</guid>
		<description>[...] nerfbat.com kontynuuje rozwa?ania nad uzyskaniem zbalansowanej gry. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color: #444; color: #ddd; border-color: 1px solid #000; padding: 10px;">
<p>[...] nerfbat.com kontynuuje rozwa?ania nad uzyskaniem zbalansowanej gry. [...]</p>
</div>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Peraud</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-6944</link>
		<dc:creator>Peraud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-6944</guid>
		<description>Hey, i couldn&#039;t think of any other better method to reach you.

well, i heard this song and instantly thought of you! 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://nongnong.moosebutter.com/sharesong.php?song=0151e08113a6f8ef5a913126d5c06df7&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pirate Song&lt;/a&gt;

hope you enjoy it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, i couldn&#8217;t think of any other better method to reach you.</p>
<p>well, i heard this song and instantly thought of you!<br />
<a href="http://nongnong.moosebutter.com/sharesong.php?song=0151e08113a6f8ef5a913126d5c06df7" rel="nofollow">Pirate Song</a></p>
<p>hope you enjoy it!</p>
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		<title>By: Sierra Kilo</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-6911</link>
		<dc:creator>Sierra Kilo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-6911</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;More on Balance...&lt;/strong&gt;

It sounds like Nerf and Psycho came to an agreement.  I think the answer to the question, &#8220;Is allowing more character flexibility the answer?&#8221; is &#8220;Yes.&#8221;  Give players the tools and let them do with them as they please.  If they ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color: #444; color: #ddd; border-color: 1px solid #000; padding: 10px;">
<p><strong>More on Balance&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>It sounds like Nerf and Psycho came to an agreement.  I think the answer to the question, &#8220;Is allowing more character flexibility the answer?&#8221; is &#8220;Yes.&#8221;  Give players the tools and let them do with them as they please.  If they &#8230;</p>
</div>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-6900</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-6900</guid>
		<description>There is also a marked difference sometimes between what you want and what you are good at.  When I play pen and paper games with my friends, I want to be the sorceror or the rogue.  I want to scout and sneak or blow things up... and I enjoy it when I do.  But, I have the most fun and my team enjoys it more when I play fighter and lead people in to battle, barking orders and commanding the field.  I&#039;m great at being in charge, but I never &lt;strong&gt;want&lt;/strong&gt; to be in charge.

In EQ, I played a monk... I took it because of the original independant nature of it (I don&#039;t need gear!), but the role I fell into in game most times was puller... and honestly, in EQ, your puller was the group leader.  He told you where to stand and decided when and how much to bring to the fight.  A good puller controlled the group.  I also took to leading raids.  Kedge, City of Mist, the Hole, Hate, Fear, Kael, Velketor&#039;s, many others...  I never wanted to be in charge, but when I saw other people failing at it, I&#039;d step up and start barking orders.

The point being, if you were to test me, or give me a tutorial, I would almost absolutely choose a class that didn&#039;t fit my true strengths, and instead would augment my tendancy to avoid my strengths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is also a marked difference sometimes between what you want and what you are good at.  When I play pen and paper games with my friends, I want to be the sorceror or the rogue.  I want to scout and sneak or blow things up&#8230; and I enjoy it when I do.  But, I have the most fun and my team enjoys it more when I play fighter and lead people in to battle, barking orders and commanding the field.  I&#8217;m great at being in charge, but I never <strong>want</strong> to be in charge.</p>
<p>In EQ, I played a monk&#8230; I took it because of the original independant nature of it (I don&#8217;t need gear!), but the role I fell into in game most times was puller&#8230; and honestly, in EQ, your puller was the group leader.  He told you where to stand and decided when and how much to bring to the fight.  A good puller controlled the group.  I also took to leading raids.  Kedge, City of Mist, the Hole, Hate, Fear, Kael, Velketor&#8217;s, many others&#8230;  I never wanted to be in charge, but when I saw other people failing at it, I&#8217;d step up and start barking orders.</p>
<p>The point being, if you were to test me, or give me a tutorial, I would almost absolutely choose a class that didn&#8217;t fit my true strengths, and instead would augment my tendancy to avoid my strengths.</p>
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		<title>By: Gaereth</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-6891</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaereth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-6891</guid>
		<description>A very simple answer to &quot;What is balance?&quot; is first required before any attempt at &#039;balancing&#039; can occur.

But, as previously mentioned, while statistical balance may seem appropriate in theory it isn&#039;t conducive to fun.  So balance truly has nothing to do with the &#039;balance&#039; people are looking for from these games.  It?s more of a straw man than anything else, a buzzword that truly doesn&#039;t have anything to do with what people yearn to achieve with and for their avatars in these games.  

So what is this elusive &#039;balance&#039; we, and so many of our fellow brethren of the chair shaped ass, are looking for???

To be useful. To be needed.

That is the ?balance? the players are looking for. That is what they mean by ?balance?. The vast majority of the screaming we see on forums and in games is due to players perceiving that someone else has become more useful or that someone has trespassed upon their nitch.

In a game where everyone is a hero it is expected by the players that they will always be useful in some way, shape, or form. They are heroes!!! Mighty adventurers and dragon slayers!!! They don?t want to be reduced to spamming a couple of buttons until the loot pi?ata explodes. No way!!!! They want to be reactively, proactively, and interactively directing their avatar through the adventure of a lifetime.

Balance is being needed, useful, and important. 

To often this need is reduced to attack numbers, armor rating, defensive ability, mana usage, and any number of arcane numerological paths that not just the developers wallow in. The players wallow in it as well, with great gusto I might add, looking for that elusive ?balance? all the while min/maxing the entire game to death. The mythical beast of ?balance? leads them a merry chase round the bush all the while they truly don?t know that which they are looking for. 

Make the avatars needed, useful, important and fun. That?s the only balance you will ever need in these games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very simple answer to &#8220;What is balance?&#8221; is first required before any attempt at &#8216;balancing&#8217; can occur.</p>
<p>But, as previously mentioned, while statistical balance may seem appropriate in theory it isn&#8217;t conducive to fun.  So balance truly has nothing to do with the &#8216;balance&#8217; people are looking for from these games.  It?s more of a straw man than anything else, a buzzword that truly doesn&#8217;t have anything to do with what people yearn to achieve with and for their avatars in these games.  </p>
<p>So what is this elusive &#8216;balance&#8217; we, and so many of our fellow brethren of the chair shaped ass, are looking for???</p>
<p>To be useful. To be needed.</p>
<p>That is the ?balance? the players are looking for. That is what they mean by ?balance?. The vast majority of the screaming we see on forums and in games is due to players perceiving that someone else has become more useful or that someone has trespassed upon their nitch.</p>
<p>In a game where everyone is a hero it is expected by the players that they will always be useful in some way, shape, or form. They are heroes!!! Mighty adventurers and dragon slayers!!! They don?t want to be reduced to spamming a couple of buttons until the loot pi?ata explodes. No way!!!! They want to be reactively, proactively, and interactively directing their avatar through the adventure of a lifetime.</p>
<p>Balance is being needed, useful, and important. </p>
<p>To often this need is reduced to attack numbers, armor rating, defensive ability, mana usage, and any number of arcane numerological paths that not just the developers wallow in. The players wallow in it as well, with great gusto I might add, looking for that elusive ?balance? all the while min/maxing the entire game to death. The mythical beast of ?balance? leads them a merry chase round the bush all the while they truly don?t know that which they are looking for. </p>
<p>Make the avatars needed, useful, important and fun. That?s the only balance you will ever need in these games.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2006/09/28/balance-continued/comment-page-1/#comment-6883</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=158#comment-6883</guid>
		<description>Tuebit, I fully agree that you should be able to switch classes with a single character. My argument for that is that players tend to identify most with one name, and almost definitely identify most with a single character. Allowing that one character to be any class tends to cure altitis (it did for me in Final Fantasy XI, and I&#039;ve always believed you should let players switch classes since).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tuebit, I fully agree that you should be able to switch classes with a single character. My argument for that is that players tend to identify most with one name, and almost definitely identify most with a single character. Allowing that one character to be any class tends to cure altitis (it did for me in Final Fantasy XI, and I&#8217;ve always believed you should let players switch classes since).</p>
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