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	<title>Comments on: MMO Development Lesson #12</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/</link>
	<description>Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder.</description>
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		<title>By: Some people, well one person, I agree with when it comes to MMOs &#171; Kenneth Godwin&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-56882</link>
		<dc:creator>Some people, well one person, I agree with when it comes to MMOs &#171; Kenneth Godwin&#8217;s Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 00:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-56882</guid>
		<description>[...] http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/ [...]</description>
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<p>[...] <a href="http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/" rel="nofollow">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Soloing - More Than A Requirement &#171; The Ancient Gaming Noob</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-37953</link>
		<dc:creator>Soloing - More Than A Requirement &#171; The Ancient Gaming Noob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-37953</guid>
		<description>[...] week over on Nerfbat, MMO Development Lesson #12 was that solo content has to be an integral and fulfilling part of any [...]</description>
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<p>[...] week over on Nerfbat, MMO Development Lesson #12 was that solo content has to be an integral and fulfilling part of any [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Makkaio</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36882</link>
		<dc:creator>Makkaio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36882</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I&#039;m one of &quot;those&quot; solo people.  Don&#039;t get me wrong, I group up to take advantage of all the content I can.  But here is why I personally enjoy soloing...

1.  Half your group isn&#039;t half way across the map and half dead by the time you are on the second dialogue screen of an interesting back story to the quest that half of those morons didn&#039;t except because the didn&#039;t bother to read the response choices to said quest.

2.  You can enjoy the in-game art or actually see the detail in the mob you are fighting instead of the getting an annoying view of all of those avatars, name text, guild text, fly text damage numbers and animations meshed together.

3.  The only one to blame for triggering the trap on a box while you&#039;re in combat is yourself.

4.  You don&#039;t get called a noob when you suggest that you don&#039;t have to pull all the mobs during a raid in order to fight the named.  And then later have to listen to them swallow their pride when one of their guild mates says, &quot;Um, dude, the guy was right...we just need to pull named.&quot;  But are you even thanked for saving everyone from death #7?  No.

5.  You don&#039;t have to explain why, as the MA tank, you did not save the wizard who pulled aggro by gently stating, &quot;The raid was better off with you dead.&quot;

6.  After every mob you don&#039;t have to wait for yet another person to AFK bio when you know darn well they went to smoke.

7.  All the loot, as crappy as it might be, is MINE!!!!

*grin*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m one of &#8220;those&#8221; solo people.  Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I group up to take advantage of all the content I can.  But here is why I personally enjoy soloing&#8230;</p>
<p>1.  Half your group isn&#8217;t half way across the map and half dead by the time you are on the second dialogue screen of an interesting back story to the quest that half of those morons didn&#8217;t except because the didn&#8217;t bother to read the response choices to said quest.</p>
<p>2.  You can enjoy the in-game art or actually see the detail in the mob you are fighting instead of the getting an annoying view of all of those avatars, name text, guild text, fly text damage numbers and animations meshed together.</p>
<p>3.  The only one to blame for triggering the trap on a box while you&#8217;re in combat is yourself.</p>
<p>4.  You don&#8217;t get called a noob when you suggest that you don&#8217;t have to pull all the mobs during a raid in order to fight the named.  And then later have to listen to them swallow their pride when one of their guild mates says, &#8220;Um, dude, the guy was right&#8230;we just need to pull named.&#8221;  But are you even thanked for saving everyone from death #7?  No.</p>
<p>5.  You don&#8217;t have to explain why, as the MA tank, you did not save the wizard who pulled aggro by gently stating, &#8220;The raid was better off with you dead.&#8221;</p>
<p>6.  After every mob you don&#8217;t have to wait for yet another person to AFK bio when you know darn well they went to smoke.</p>
<p>7.  All the loot, as crappy as it might be, is MINE!!!!</p>
<p>*grin*</p>
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		<title>By: Kohs</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36873</link>
		<dc:creator>Kohs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36873</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Its not classed based design that promotes “no solo” mentalities… its item-centered design.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s both really. Actually, it seems to be the &lt;em&gt;entire&lt;/em&gt; &quot;typical&quot; MMO design as a whole which is anti-soloing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Its not classed based design that promotes “no solo” mentalities… its item-centered design.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s both really. Actually, it seems to be the <em>entire</em> &#8220;typical&#8221; MMO design as a whole which is anti-soloing.</p>
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		<title>By: weblog.probablynot.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Together Alone, Alone Together</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36864</link>
		<dc:creator>weblog.probablynot.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Together Alone, Alone Together</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36864</guid>
		<description>[...] Over at the nerfbat, Ryan adds another lesson, this one about Solo Content not being a bad thing. [...]</description>
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<p>[...] Over at the nerfbat, Ryan adds another lesson, this one about Solo Content not being a bad thing. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mythilt</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36799</link>
		<dc:creator>Mythilt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36799</guid>
		<description>Another reason to solo is when you are a questoholic and lore lover it is often very hard to find a group that is doing all the quests you want to.  I&#039;ve had to leave groups because I wanted to finish some quests that they just simply deleted because they had greyed out on them (The dreaded journal full problem doesn&#039;t help here either).  Sure I want to do the level appropriate stuff, but I want to try as much as possible as well.  Soloing is generally the best way to do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another reason to solo is when you are a questoholic and lore lover it is often very hard to find a group that is doing all the quests you want to.  I&#8217;ve had to leave groups because I wanted to finish some quests that they just simply deleted because they had greyed out on them (The dreaded journal full problem doesn&#8217;t help here either).  Sure I want to do the level appropriate stuff, but I want to try as much as possible as well.  Soloing is generally the best way to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36798</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36798</guid>
		<description>Its not classed based design that promotes &quot;no solo&quot; mentalities... its item-centered design.  I&#039;d go into it more, but I think I&#039;ll save that for my own blog.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its not classed based design that promotes &#8220;no solo&#8221; mentalities&#8230; its item-centered design.  I&#8217;d go into it more, but I think I&#8217;ll save that for my own blog.  <img src='http://www.nerfbat.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Kilanna</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36786</link>
		<dc:creator>Kilanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36786</guid>
		<description>AMEN!!.  I think there are many reasons why people will want to adventure solo in MMO&#039;s.  Irregular hours, sporadic ammounts of playing time, bad experiences when you have grouped before, love of tradeskills/crafting, inability to dedicate blocks of time necessary for raiding.

I play EQII and LOVE the game.  I am Australian and play at irregular hours - often difficult to get a group especially during the week.  I can sometimes manage a group on my Saturday and Sunday mornings (Friday and Sat night US time).  During this time, I occasionally group with guildies to both give and recieve help for HQ&#039;s or more difficult game content.   Between those times I want to be completing game content towards advancement of my toon, and to contribute to the advancement of my guild (writs).  If I cant, then this leads to much frustration and unhappines for my little dwarven Templar :)

When I reach endgame, I dont think i want to raid.   I accept that I am therefore not going to get all the shiny leet loot and may miss out on some game content.  That is OK with me.  Just make sure that there is enough content that I have plenty of stuff to continue on with to develop my toon in some way - such as the likes of more detailed deity quests, or questing for special treasures to decorate my home or whatever.    The idea of being able to chose solo or small group versions of many more instances is a FANTASTIC idea.

I am part of a guild and even if I dont raid - I can contribute to the guild.  Crafting of food, drink, ammo, potions, skill/spell upgrades, mastercrafted adornments,  armour and weapons.   I can do writs that also contribute to guild progression.  I have done all of these things just last night for example - hardly antisocial or against the &quot;community&quot; intent of MMOs.  

So the thing is even if I mostly adventure solo, I am still part of the community and make valuable contributions to the community.  Please then give me enough game content that I can see my toon develop without forcing me into a group to adventure and advance my toon.

As Robertson points out above - you want my moolah, you need to cater to more than just one style of play:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AMEN!!.  I think there are many reasons why people will want to adventure solo in MMO&#8217;s.  Irregular hours, sporadic ammounts of playing time, bad experiences when you have grouped before, love of tradeskills/crafting, inability to dedicate blocks of time necessary for raiding.</p>
<p>I play EQII and LOVE the game.  I am Australian and play at irregular hours &#8211; often difficult to get a group especially during the week.  I can sometimes manage a group on my Saturday and Sunday mornings (Friday and Sat night US time).  During this time, I occasionally group with guildies to both give and recieve help for HQ&#8217;s or more difficult game content.   Between those times I want to be completing game content towards advancement of my toon, and to contribute to the advancement of my guild (writs).  If I cant, then this leads to much frustration and unhappines for my little dwarven Templar <img src='http://www.nerfbat.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>When I reach endgame, I dont think i want to raid.   I accept that I am therefore not going to get all the shiny leet loot and may miss out on some game content.  That is OK with me.  Just make sure that there is enough content that I have plenty of stuff to continue on with to develop my toon in some way &#8211; such as the likes of more detailed deity quests, or questing for special treasures to decorate my home or whatever.    The idea of being able to chose solo or small group versions of many more instances is a FANTASTIC idea.</p>
<p>I am part of a guild and even if I dont raid &#8211; I can contribute to the guild.  Crafting of food, drink, ammo, potions, skill/spell upgrades, mastercrafted adornments,  armour and weapons.   I can do writs that also contribute to guild progression.  I have done all of these things just last night for example &#8211; hardly antisocial or against the &#8220;community&#8221; intent of MMOs.  </p>
<p>So the thing is even if I mostly adventure solo, I am still part of the community and make valuable contributions to the community.  Please then give me enough game content that I can see my toon develop without forcing me into a group to adventure and advance my toon.</p>
<p>As Robertson points out above &#8211; you want my moolah, you need to cater to more than just one style of play:)</p>
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		<title>By: Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36771</link>
		<dc:creator>Robertson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36771</guid>
		<description>They paid for the game. They can play it however they want as long as there not cheating to get a specific advantage. If they want to go out on there own.  By all means they can go right ahead. 
Now if a game takes that away from those people and forces them to play as a group then thats players that they lose along with there moolah.  A game can not just be suited for one type of player. It needs variety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They paid for the game. They can play it however they want as long as there not cheating to get a specific advantage. If they want to go out on there own.  By all means they can go right ahead.<br />
Now if a game takes that away from those people and forces them to play as a group then thats players that they lose along with there moolah.  A game can not just be suited for one type of player. It needs variety.</p>
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		<title>By: Kohs</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/comment-page-1/#comment-36767</link>
		<dc:creator>Kohs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2007/04/16/mmo-development-lesson-12/#comment-36767</guid>
		<description>I think the &quot;soloing is bad&quot; mentality stems directly from the crazy class-based MMO mentality. Of course people will frown on soloing when the game is set up so that each character is only part of a whole, and groups (consisting of characters from various classes) make up the whole. In fact, it seems that class-based games are designed specificially so that players can not play the entire game on their own. Players who are looking for a &quot;shared presence&quot; experience will not be satisfied by the current standard formula for MMO design because the design either does not tend to favor solo-play, or just outright prevents it on purpose.

If they truely want to play an MMO, and not just want to play a single player game with amped up &quot;AI&quot; (where the AI is other players), then they&#039;d probably be better off with a more Worldy, player-driven game, where traditional MMO design is less prevalent.

Of course even in more Worldy, player-driven types of MMOs, players who seek that shared presence should at least expect to encounter some forms of inter-dependency, whether direct or indirect. You don&#039;t plant and harvest (or breed and butcher) the food you eat. You don&#039;t weave and sew the clothes you wear. Someone else does it, and you acquire that stuff from them somehow. 
And on the flip side (for crafter folks), you don&#039;t defend the town you&#039;re living in. You don&#039;t fight the wars against your mortal enemies. Someone else does it, and you go on living your life uninterrupted.
Of course there could be individuals who grow their own food, make their own clothes, and fight their own wars, but unless your MMO is set in a world of simple technology (like a dawn-of-civilization type setting) nothing besides specialization would make much sense on a widespread scale.

However, that specialization doesn&#039;t have to be forced on players through hard mechanic rules (like all the class-based MMOs). You could allow players to do everything, and specialization would just happen naturally because players don&#039;t have the time to do everything for self-sustenance. Especially if being able to do something required any sort of player skill or knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the &#8220;soloing is bad&#8221; mentality stems directly from the crazy class-based MMO mentality. Of course people will frown on soloing when the game is set up so that each character is only part of a whole, and groups (consisting of characters from various classes) make up the whole. In fact, it seems that class-based games are designed specificially so that players can not play the entire game on their own. Players who are looking for a &#8220;shared presence&#8221; experience will not be satisfied by the current standard formula for MMO design because the design either does not tend to favor solo-play, or just outright prevents it on purpose.</p>
<p>If they truely want to play an MMO, and not just want to play a single player game with amped up &#8220;AI&#8221; (where the AI is other players), then they&#8217;d probably be better off with a more Worldy, player-driven game, where traditional MMO design is less prevalent.</p>
<p>Of course even in more Worldy, player-driven types of MMOs, players who seek that shared presence should at least expect to encounter some forms of inter-dependency, whether direct or indirect. You don&#8217;t plant and harvest (or breed and butcher) the food you eat. You don&#8217;t weave and sew the clothes you wear. Someone else does it, and you acquire that stuff from them somehow.<br />
And on the flip side (for crafter folks), you don&#8217;t defend the town you&#8217;re living in. You don&#8217;t fight the wars against your mortal enemies. Someone else does it, and you go on living your life uninterrupted.<br />
Of course there could be individuals who grow their own food, make their own clothes, and fight their own wars, but unless your MMO is set in a world of simple technology (like a dawn-of-civilization type setting) nothing besides specialization would make much sense on a widespread scale.</p>
<p>However, that specialization doesn&#8217;t have to be forced on players through hard mechanic rules (like all the class-based MMOs). You could allow players to do everything, and specialization would just happen naturally because players don&#8217;t have the time to do everything for self-sustenance. Especially if being able to do something required any sort of player skill or knowledge.</p>
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