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	<title>Comments on: Nostalgia Blinders</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/</link>
	<description>Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: davidryanhunt.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Am I the only one?</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-74570</link>
		<dc:creator>davidryanhunt.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Am I the only one?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 04:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-74570</guid>
		<description>[...] and I came across some interesting articles. Recently, Ryan Shwayder at Nerfbat wrote about MMORPG nostalgia. One line I find particularly [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and I came across some interesting articles. Recently, Ryan Shwayder at Nerfbat wrote about MMORPG nostalgia. One line I find particularly [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Spiralyguy</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-73798</link>
		<dc:creator>Spiralyguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-73798</guid>
		<description>I agree, nostalgia is a dangerous source of inspiration when developing a game.  This is likely one of the major pitfalls of Vanguard (amongst other things). 

Nostalgia is looking back into the past.  Developing a successful game requires looking into the future.  Quite the opposite IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, nostalgia is a dangerous source of inspiration when developing a game.  This is likely one of the major pitfalls of Vanguard (amongst other things). </p>
<p>Nostalgia is looking back into the past.  Developing a successful game requires looking into the future.  Quite the opposite IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72945</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72945</guid>
		<description>The biggest nostalgia item I have is the social aspect of EQ.  The game had travel and downtime and auto-attack and etc etc etc...  Played tight the game could be very active, but it could also be played somewhat passively while still progressing.  Modern games are so "active" with all the skill activating and clicking and button pushing, fast combat, reduced downtime... there's no room for chatting with your group mates.  You have to practically stop playing the game to do anything besides playing the game.

I would happily rearrange my schedule to make for larger blocks of game time if it would make a difference, but games like WoW have made everything that isn't raiding so "easy" that even if I carved out an five hour block for gaming, most groups don't last longer than 30 minutes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest nostalgia item I have is the social aspect of EQ.  The game had travel and downtime and auto-attack and etc etc etc&#8230;  Played tight the game could be very active, but it could also be played somewhat passively while still progressing.  Modern games are so &#8220;active&#8221; with all the skill activating and clicking and button pushing, fast combat, reduced downtime&#8230; there&#8217;s no room for chatting with your group mates.  You have to practically stop playing the game to do anything besides playing the game.</p>
<p>I would happily rearrange my schedule to make for larger blocks of game time if it would make a difference, but games like WoW have made everything that isn&#8217;t raiding so &#8220;easy&#8221; that even if I carved out an five hour block for gaming, most groups don&#8217;t last longer than 30 minutes.</p>
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		<title>By: Age of Legends</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72885</link>
		<dc:creator>Age of Legends</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72885</guid>
		<description>I think modern demographics are against those who want unlimited PvP, hard death penalties, massive time sinks etc.  We all live in an age when time is precious and we don't want to waste it sitting and waiting for the boat in Freeport, or going on a 72 man raid that takes 8+ hours. Or dying and losing a weeks worth of XP. I really thing that these "features" are features for younger people who have a lot more time on their hands than most of us holding down a job(and in some cases 2 jobs)  can spare.  A lot of the things that people fondly remember where vast time sinks and unless you had lots of free time they were a big irritant.

As for PvP there are many, many people who would refuse to play a game if PvP were an integral and required part of the game.  I believe Shadowbane was an all PvP game and its success was hardly earth shattering.  And its numbers were miniscule. 

This is one of the reason why WoW has been so successful -- they made a game in which you could accomplish something in a short play period

I think a niche game which has heavy time requirements as old EQ1 did will be hard pressed to make money and attract players unless they have really low development costs and feature sub-par graphics, and content. Content cost money -- so if a game is going to cater to a niche market with unpopular features, players had better expect limited content.

I find it difficult to believe that those who think a niche market game will work, will be satisfied with sub-par content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think modern demographics are against those who want unlimited PvP, hard death penalties, massive time sinks etc.  We all live in an age when time is precious and we don&#8217;t want to waste it sitting and waiting for the boat in Freeport, or going on a 72 man raid that takes 8+ hours. Or dying and losing a weeks worth of XP. I really thing that these &#8220;features&#8221; are features for younger people who have a lot more time on their hands than most of us holding down a job(and in some cases 2 jobs)  can spare.  A lot of the things that people fondly remember where vast time sinks and unless you had lots of free time they were a big irritant.</p>
<p>As for PvP there are many, many people who would refuse to play a game if PvP were an integral and required part of the game.  I believe Shadowbane was an all PvP game and its success was hardly earth shattering.  And its numbers were miniscule. </p>
<p>This is one of the reason why WoW has been so successful &#8212; they made a game in which you could accomplish something in a short play period</p>
<p>I think a niche game which has heavy time requirements as old EQ1 did will be hard pressed to make money and attract players unless they have really low development costs and feature sub-par graphics, and content. Content cost money &#8212; so if a game is going to cater to a niche market with unpopular features, players had better expect limited content.</p>
<p>I find it difficult to believe that those who think a niche market game will work, will be satisfied with sub-par content.</p>
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		<title>By: Snafzg</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72830</link>
		<dc:creator>Snafzg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72830</guid>
		<description>Jason takes the words right out of my mouth.

Were we to ignore niche crowds, we wouldn't need any more games in the MMORPG  genre because WoW is already appealing to the majority (and lowest common denominator) of people.

And the unfortunate thing?  Even if someone took all the concepts of WoW and refined them to a sharper point, people will keep playing it because the nostalgia factor works both ways. People become personally invested in MMORPGs because of the community and the amount of time they put in.  Not many people are willing to throw away a top-notch character just to repeat the grind all over again in a new game.

And if they do take the risk and aren't 100% satisfied, the nostalgia factor kicks in again and they hop right back into ol' faithful.

I think niche markets are the way to go. As stated above, MMORGs can be very lucrative under good management even if you can only attract a couple hundred thousand subscribers. I have no vendetta against WoW, but it is trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none. Eventually the sum of the niche games will absorb the dissatisfied and bored WoW gamers. With their numbers though, the game will remain profitable for over a decade, IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason takes the words right out of my mouth.</p>
<p>Were we to ignore niche crowds, we wouldn&#8217;t need any more games in the MMORPG  genre because WoW is already appealing to the majority (and lowest common denominator) of people.</p>
<p>And the unfortunate thing?  Even if someone took all the concepts of WoW and refined them to a sharper point, people will keep playing it because the nostalgia factor works both ways. People become personally invested in MMORPGs because of the community and the amount of time they put in.  Not many people are willing to throw away a top-notch character just to repeat the grind all over again in a new game.</p>
<p>And if they do take the risk and aren&#8217;t 100% satisfied, the nostalgia factor kicks in again and they hop right back into ol&#8217; faithful.</p>
<p>I think niche markets are the way to go. As stated above, MMORGs can be very lucrative under good management even if you can only attract a couple hundred thousand subscribers. I have no vendetta against WoW, but it is trying to be the jack of all trades and the master of none. Eventually the sum of the niche games will absorb the dissatisfied and bored WoW gamers. With their numbers though, the game will remain profitable for over a decade, IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: Tagrun</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72783</link>
		<dc:creator>Tagrun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 05:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72783</guid>
		<description>Ha. I love looking back on Everquest.

All the Pre-Bazaar days...with selling Bag-o-stuff in North FreePort. 

*sigh*Memories. Thats all</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha. I love looking back on Everquest.</p>
<p>All the Pre-Bazaar days&#8230;with selling Bag-o-stuff in North FreePort. </p>
<p>*sigh*Memories. Thats all</p>
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		<title>By: Tholal</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72762</link>
		<dc:creator>Tholal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72762</guid>
		<description>Jason has an excellent point. What is the definition of niche these days?  If you compare it to WoW subscription numbers, pretty much everything except for the occasional game from Asia and the kid-oriented collecting worlds would be considered niche. Does having 'only' 100,000 subscribers mean that the game isn't worth making?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason has an excellent point. What is the definition of niche these days?  If you compare it to WoW subscription numbers, pretty much everything except for the occasional game from Asia and the kid-oriented collecting worlds would be considered niche. Does having &#8216;only&#8217; 100,000 subscribers mean that the game isn&#8217;t worth making?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72761</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72761</guid>
		<description>I agree that developers shouldn't be afraid of being niche. Or, more accurately, publishers shouldn't be afraid of being niche. If you invest $5 million in a niche MMO, chances are it will pay off. Publishers just need to be willing to get less money out of it overall (though potentially a higher percentage payoff).

As far as China and wolf/sheep PvP goes, I'm surprised and not surprised. I'm only truly familiar with the North American MMO market. Basically, you're saying that people who don't really like engaging in PvP (sheep) are perfectly willing to play on a server with people who do like engaging in PvP (wolves) without any major restrictions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that developers shouldn&#8217;t be afraid of being niche. Or, more accurately, publishers shouldn&#8217;t be afraid of being niche. If you invest $5 million in a niche MMO, chances are it will pay off. Publishers just need to be willing to get less money out of it overall (though potentially a higher percentage payoff).</p>
<p>As far as China and wolf/sheep PvP goes, I&#8217;m surprised and not surprised. I&#8217;m only truly familiar with the North American MMO market. Basically, you&#8217;re saying that people who don&#8217;t really like engaging in PvP (sheep) are perfectly willing to play on a server with people who do like engaging in PvP (wolves) without any major restrictions?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72752</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72752</guid>
		<description>Those game might, by today's standards, indeed be niche... but what's wrong with that?  I really think, at this point, huge teams and budgets are hurting games.  Everyone wants to spend $30 million and get WoW numbers in return.  And yet, even UO and EQ still probably run a healthy profit.  Even EVE online which has been slowly holding and growing makes money.

I'd love for more games to embrace a niche and make a smaller set of gamers vary happy than to try to please everyone and make none of them happy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those game might, by today&#8217;s standards, indeed be niche&#8230; but what&#8217;s wrong with that?  I really think, at this point, huge teams and budgets are hurting games.  Everyone wants to spend $30 million and get WoW numbers in return.  And yet, even UO and EQ still probably run a healthy profit.  Even EVE online which has been slowly holding and growing makes money.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love for more games to embrace a niche and make a smaller set of gamers vary happy than to try to please everyone and make none of them happy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tipa</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/comment-page-1/#comment-72751</link>
		<dc:creator>Tipa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/01/03/nostalgia-blinders/#comment-72751</guid>
		<description>Tuebit -- what if, in PvP, every time you fought someone of a certain faction, win or lose, you'd build up immunity to that faction? So after awhile, if you're from Team A and were always getting ganked by Team B (or perhaps you were always ganking them), over time you couldn't do anything to Team B without putting a lot of effort into it -- but Team C would find you easy prey. And while you were dealing with them, slowly Team B would be able to have a go at you once again.

So every character has an immunity pool, and if the wolf goes back to the same sheep too often, neither he nor any other wolf will be able to touch them until the sheep start running into bears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tuebit &#8212; what if, in PvP, every time you fought someone of a certain faction, win or lose, you&#8217;d build up immunity to that faction? So after awhile, if you&#8217;re from Team A and were always getting ganked by Team B (or perhaps you were always ganking them), over time you couldn&#8217;t do anything to Team B without putting a lot of effort into it &#8212; but Team C would find you easy prey. And while you were dealing with them, slowly Team B would be able to have a go at you once again.</p>
<p>So every character has an immunity pool, and if the wolf goes back to the same sheep too often, neither he nor any other wolf will be able to touch them until the sheep start running into bears.</p>
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