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	<title>Comments on: MMO Rant #14: Time as Gameplay</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/</link>
	<description>Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 03:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: See Ted Run. Run Ted Run. &#187; Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-75735</link>
		<dc:creator>See Ted Run. Run Ted Run. &#187; Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-75735</guid>
		<description>[...] I like this guy. His rant today is hammer-smashing-nail-head. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I like this guy. His rant today is hammer-smashing-nail-head. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Teronicus</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74746</link>
		<dc:creator>Teronicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74746</guid>
		<description>I hate the darn quest in EQ2 in the Enchanted Lands where you have to kill 10 of those Void Shrieker bat things flying around his wagon and then you go back to the guy and he makes you go back and kill 10 more!   DAMN YOU!   Why not just say 20 at the start?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate the darn quest in EQ2 in the Enchanted Lands where you have to kill 10 of those Void Shrieker bat things flying around his wagon and then you go back to the guy and he makes you go back and kill 10 more!   DAMN YOU!   Why not just say 20 at the start?</p>
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		<title>By: Genda</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74692</link>
		<dc:creator>Genda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 19:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74692</guid>
		<description>There's a good example of this in Everquest 2.  In the Darklight Woods noob zone, there is a quest to take a leash and fetch 3 baby bears for this NPC.  You have to make three trips down the road to get the non-aggro bears in a non-aggro area of the zone.  There is no danger or skill associated with the act, and while I was doing it (twice, because "hello, my name is Paul and I have a Altohol problem") I was thinking about this exact thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a good example of this in Everquest 2.  In the Darklight Woods noob zone, there is a quest to take a leash and fetch 3 baby bears for this NPC.  You have to make three trips down the road to get the non-aggro bears in a non-aggro area of the zone.  There is no danger or skill associated with the act, and while I was doing it (twice, because &#8220;hello, my name is Paul and I have a Altohol problem&#8221;) I was thinking about this exact thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74685</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74685</guid>
		<description>Yes, there will be someone parsing all of my posts to try and create the game that they think we're making at 38 Studios. If they use all of the posts, there is a 100% chance that they'll be wrong about the game that actually comes out.

Sometimes, my opinions change over time and things I said even a few months ago could be different from what I'd say now. That's a good thing for the life of the blog, because I can talk about the same stuff multiple times and will often contradict my past self.

Sometimes, I give my personal preferences rather than what I think would be right for a specific type of game. Some things I preach don't apply to, say, a Free-for-All PvP Destruction Derby game. Whatever is right for the game we're making is what will be implemented, regardless of my personal preferences.

Sometimes, my ideas will get trumped. There are often other ways to do things than what I feel we should do that are equally viable for the game. Since I'm not the god of game design (well, sure I &lt;em&gt;am&lt;/em&gt;, but not according to my position at the company), I can't always get my way (this is probably a good thing).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, there will be someone parsing all of my posts to try and create the game that they think we&#8217;re making at 38 Studios. If they use all of the posts, there is a 100% chance that they&#8217;ll be wrong about the game that actually comes out.</p>
<p>Sometimes, my opinions change over time and things I said even a few months ago could be different from what I&#8217;d say now. That&#8217;s a good thing for the life of the blog, because I can talk about the same stuff multiple times and will often contradict my past self.</p>
<p>Sometimes, I give my personal preferences rather than what I think would be right for a specific type of game. Some things I preach don&#8217;t apply to, say, a Free-for-All PvP Destruction Derby game. Whatever is right for the game we&#8217;re making is what will be implemented, regardless of my personal preferences.</p>
<p>Sometimes, my ideas will get trumped. There are often other ways to do things than what I feel we should do that are equally viable for the game. Since I&#8217;m not the god of game design (well, sure I <em>am</em>, but not according to my position at the company), I can&#8217;t always get my way (this is probably a good thing).</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74684</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74684</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;When SOE decided to add “gems” to their game, that was when I realized this wasn’t the game for me. If you need to add a game to your game just so I have something to keep me entertained during downtime, I really need to be doing something else with my time.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I know a number of people who said the same thing, but from my perspective, gems wasn't needed because I never had true downtime unless I decided I wanted downtime.  For me, time between pulls and fighting was spent either a) exploring the new area because as the monk/puller I needed to find out how the zone worked, or b) chatting with people, be it friends in tells, the group, the guild or just in the OOC channel.  I've said it before and I will continue to say it, but for me what drove me away from WoW was the silence... it lacks a lot of the social aspect of EQ because they have eliminated most of the "downtime" to the point where the group is almost always moving and fighting.

And Ryan... every time you post one of these, I imagine there is a guy out there (probably a few) furiously making notes and keeping track, and should the game 38 Studios released violate any of your rules, you are going to catch a lot of hell for it.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>When SOE decided to add “gems” to their game, that was when I realized this wasn’t the game for me. If you need to add a game to your game just so I have something to keep me entertained during downtime, I really need to be doing something else with my time.</p></blockquote>
<p>I know a number of people who said the same thing, but from my perspective, gems wasn&#8217;t needed because I never had true downtime unless I decided I wanted downtime.  For me, time between pulls and fighting was spent either a) exploring the new area because as the monk/puller I needed to find out how the zone worked, or b) chatting with people, be it friends in tells, the group, the guild or just in the OOC channel.  I&#8217;ve said it before and I will continue to say it, but for me what drove me away from WoW was the silence&#8230; it lacks a lot of the social aspect of EQ because they have eliminated most of the &#8220;downtime&#8221; to the point where the group is almost always moving and fighting.</p>
<p>And Ryan&#8230; every time you post one of these, I imagine there is a guy out there (probably a few) furiously making notes and keeping track, and should the game 38 Studios released violate any of your rules, you are going to catch a lot of hell for it.  <img src='http://www.nerfbat.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: David Ryan Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74675</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ryan Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 05:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74675</guid>
		<description>"But, I also believe that cherishing a player’s time is an important way to enable them to have fun in the game."

That line sums up the single most important lesson that I took from the MUD and Everquest days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But, I also believe that cherishing a player’s time is an important way to enable them to have fun in the game.&#8221;</p>
<p>That line sums up the single most important lesson that I took from the MUD and Everquest days.</p>
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		<title>By: Gundrik</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74665</link>
		<dc:creator>Gundrik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74665</guid>
		<description>Ooo  very good, very good.

I never really made the connection between time-wasting quests and the writers/devs who design the quests.  Odd isn't it?  It would certainly be a great standard to see raised in the development community.  Quality over quantity ftw!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooo  very good, very good.</p>
<p>I never really made the connection between time-wasting quests and the writers/devs who design the quests.  Odd isn&#8217;t it?  It would certainly be a great standard to see raised in the development community.  Quality over quantity ftw!</p>
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		<title>By: Relmstein</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74663</link>
		<dc:creator>Relmstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 18:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74663</guid>
		<description>Yeah I always thought that poorly designed quests were one of the things that made travel time so annoying for some players.

&lt;a href="http://relmstein.blogspot.com/2008/01/threat-of-travel-time.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Threat of Travel Times&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah I always thought that poorly designed quests were one of the things that made travel time so annoying for some players.</p>
<p><a href="http://relmstein.blogspot.com/2008/01/threat-of-travel-time.html" rel="nofollow">Threat of Travel Times</a></p>
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		<title>By: Damien</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74660</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 05:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74660</guid>
		<description>My biggest gripe with EverQuest was something really, really simple that not a lot of people noticed as a "bad" thing. When SOE decided to add "gems" to their game, that was when I realized this wasn't the game for me. If you need to add a game to your game just so I have something to keep me entertained during downtime, I really need to be doing something else with my time.

The thing about it is, most MMOs dont exist in a vacuum. Right across the room from my PC, I have my PS3 hooked up and running. Within seconds I can be online playing first person shooters or even the PS3 brand of MMOs - WarHawk. Instant rewards, very little time sink, no monthly fees. MMO designers should learn from the "console" model and offer more content up front and not worry about the "diehards" that accomplish everything the game has to offer in one or two sittings. The vast majority of players are not that person (anyone know the percentage of people who have actually seen Illidan? No, WCIII doesn't count...)

Having said that, WOW is quite possibly the best MMO to date in terms of time versus reward. There is literally something for everyone, and having played EQ, then SWG, then EQ2 for years, I think I'm qualified to comment here. The quests in WOW are actually far more fun than the "quests" in any of SOE's offerings. In WOW at least I feel as though I'm actually able to accomplish something. I'm all for the community aspect of the game, but after spending all that time getting my Necro his epic and all the best gear, getting wiped out by a single green con mob was not only frustrating, but embarrassing to try and explain to people who didn't play the game. 

Don't get me started on FFXI...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My biggest gripe with EverQuest was something really, really simple that not a lot of people noticed as a &#8220;bad&#8221; thing. When SOE decided to add &#8220;gems&#8221; to their game, that was when I realized this wasn&#8217;t the game for me. If you need to add a game to your game just so I have something to keep me entertained during downtime, I really need to be doing something else with my time.</p>
<p>The thing about it is, most MMOs dont exist in a vacuum. Right across the room from my PC, I have my PS3 hooked up and running. Within seconds I can be online playing first person shooters or even the PS3 brand of MMOs - WarHawk. Instant rewards, very little time sink, no monthly fees. MMO designers should learn from the &#8220;console&#8221; model and offer more content up front and not worry about the &#8220;diehards&#8221; that accomplish everything the game has to offer in one or two sittings. The vast majority of players are not that person (anyone know the percentage of people who have actually seen Illidan? No, WCIII doesn&#8217;t count&#8230;)</p>
<p>Having said that, WOW is quite possibly the best MMO to date in terms of time versus reward. There is literally something for everyone, and having played EQ, then SWG, then EQ2 for years, I think I&#8217;m qualified to comment here. The quests in WOW are actually far more fun than the &#8220;quests&#8221; in any of SOE&#8217;s offerings. In WOW at least I feel as though I&#8217;m actually able to accomplish something. I&#8217;m all for the community aspect of the game, but after spending all that time getting my Necro his epic and all the best gear, getting wiped out by a single green con mob was not only frustrating, but embarrassing to try and explain to people who didn&#8217;t play the game. </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me started on FFXI&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kinetic</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74657</link>
		<dc:creator>Kinetic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 01:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/06/mmo-rant-14-time-as-gameplay/#comment-74657</guid>
		<description>I think you have to consider that MMOs such as WoW that are explicitly trying to co-exist in the Asian market also (arguably) have to appeal to the kind of gamer that enjoys mindless grinding. As I'm sure you know, some of the most successful MMOs in the asian market are unbelievable grindfests with relatively stiff penalties for player-death. Trying to satisfy players who want to grind in a PCBang until they are numb while not making your NA/EU market upset (some members of which complain that the death penalty in wow is harsh) is a tall order. I'm not saying it can't be done better, but it's a tall order none the less.

I think the progression of Jeff Kaplan experimenting with (time based) content pacing in WoW's endgame has been pretty interesting. Tier2's end boss was capped at 1 attempt per day. Tier2.5's end boss was not capped, but they made time between wipe and next attempt 15-20min due to sheer travel distance. Add to that the gating to open the entire dungeon being a 3-6 month server-wide farming event. Tier3's end boss was gated by another boss which required repeated(capped by instance reset timers) farming of hundreds of ingredients from lower area of the dungeon. Tier5 was paced by grinding reputation in the lower instances, and Tier6 by limiting the drop rate of attunement items from tier5 end bosses. It appears Tier6.5 will be gated by the entire server grinding daily quests - a much less transparent metric and thus easier to adjust than the Tier2.5 event for low pop servers.

All of those gating mechanisms have been removed over time, and thus the vast majority of the playerbase never runs into those hurdles - they never actually get to run into the endgame of WoW at all anyway, but that is an entirely seperate failure. The really intense delay mechanisms are meant solely for the players spending all day slamming up against the edge of content, like Kaplan used to do in EQ1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you have to consider that MMOs such as WoW that are explicitly trying to co-exist in the Asian market also (arguably) have to appeal to the kind of gamer that enjoys mindless grinding. As I&#8217;m sure you know, some of the most successful MMOs in the asian market are unbelievable grindfests with relatively stiff penalties for player-death. Trying to satisfy players who want to grind in a PCBang until they are numb while not making your NA/EU market upset (some members of which complain that the death penalty in wow is harsh) is a tall order. I&#8217;m not saying it can&#8217;t be done better, but it&#8217;s a tall order none the less.</p>
<p>I think the progression of Jeff Kaplan experimenting with (time based) content pacing in WoW&#8217;s endgame has been pretty interesting. Tier2&#8217;s end boss was capped at 1 attempt per day. Tier2.5&#8217;s end boss was not capped, but they made time between wipe and next attempt 15-20min due to sheer travel distance. Add to that the gating to open the entire dungeon being a 3-6 month server-wide farming event. Tier3&#8217;s end boss was gated by another boss which required repeated(capped by instance reset timers) farming of hundreds of ingredients from lower area of the dungeon. Tier5 was paced by grinding reputation in the lower instances, and Tier6 by limiting the drop rate of attunement items from tier5 end bosses. It appears Tier6.5 will be gated by the entire server grinding daily quests - a much less transparent metric and thus easier to adjust than the Tier2.5 event for low pop servers.</p>
<p>All of those gating mechanisms have been removed over time, and thus the vast majority of the playerbase never runs into those hurdles - they never actually get to run into the endgame of WoW at all anyway, but that is an entirely seperate failure. The really intense delay mechanisms are meant solely for the players spending all day slamming up against the edge of content, like Kaplan used to do in EQ1.</p>
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