<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: PC LOAD LETTER (Yes, this is about Game Design)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/</link>
	<description>Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74826</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74826</guid>
		<description>I just recently started playing EQ2.  On the initial zone there is a quest, the second in a line of six or seven, that requires you to find evidence of some missing soldiers.  After finding nothing, I finally got fed up and went to a spoiler site.  It said I needed to find the body of a dead soldier on the ground, which would trigger a defiled soldier, killing him would get the evidence I need to complete the quest.  Only... there is no dead soldier.  There are, however, anywhere from three to eighteen players standing there in the newbie zone waiting for it to show up.  Several of us petitioned, only one of us got a reply, which was something along the lines of "You don't need to complete that quest line, just move on."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just recently started playing EQ2.  On the initial zone there is a quest, the second in a line of six or seven, that requires you to find evidence of some missing soldiers.  After finding nothing, I finally got fed up and went to a spoiler site.  It said I needed to find the body of a dead soldier on the ground, which would trigger a defiled soldier, killing him would get the evidence I need to complete the quest.  Only&#8230; there is no dead soldier.  There are, however, anywhere from three to eighteen players standing there in the newbie zone waiting for it to show up.  Several of us petitioned, only one of us got a reply, which was something along the lines of &#8220;You don&#8217;t need to complete that quest line, just move on.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: MouseJunior</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74791</link>
		<dc:creator>MouseJunior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74791</guid>
		<description>Oh god. There was a EQ2 quest, I've forgotten which one, but it involved finding whatzits (runes? skeletons? something like that) in a whole bunch of zones. Took me ages, and then I was down to the last one, and I'd scanned the zone I knew it was in inch by inch by inch by everloving inch. Eventually I broke down and begged one of my guildmates to lead me to the whatzit I couldn't find on my own, only to have him lead me to a room I'd carefully searched a dozen times before, where I discovered that the whatzit wasn't rendering on my computer.  :evil: 

If you're going to have uberlong quests that require me to track down mystery whatzits all over the world without any hints, make the whatzits big and simple enough that even your minimum system is going to render it. Having to get someone to tell me "click two feet to the right of the post over there, where the tiles on the shelf intersect" is Not Fun, and a good way to lose an income stream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh god. There was a EQ2 quest, I&#8217;ve forgotten which one, but it involved finding whatzits (runes? skeletons? something like that) in a whole bunch of zones. Took me ages, and then I was down to the last one, and I&#8217;d scanned the zone I knew it was in inch by inch by inch by everloving inch. Eventually I broke down and begged one of my guildmates to lead me to the whatzit I couldn&#8217;t find on my own, only to have him lead me to a room I&#8217;d carefully searched a dozen times before, where I discovered that the whatzit wasn&#8217;t rendering on my computer.  <img src='http://www.nerfbat.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif' alt=':evil:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re going to have uberlong quests that require me to track down mystery whatzits all over the world without any hints, make the whatzits big and simple enough that even your minimum system is going to render it. Having to get someone to tell me &#8220;click two feet to the right of the post over there, where the tiles on the shelf intersect&#8221; is Not Fun, and a good way to lose an income stream.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DamianoV</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74790</link>
		<dc:creator>DamianoV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74790</guid>
		<description>To me, the difference between the "find the way to beat the Epic boss" and "find the obscure path to get to the Epic boss" is that the former entails a finite and well-understood set of options for action, only a few of which will lead to eventual success, while the latter encompasses unlimited possible options with no precedent or prompting to guide a player to an eventual solution.  Ambiguity within a defined and universally understood (and good luck with that) set of options might be workable; ambiguity in a limitless set of options is frustrating and largely pointless.  

... and identifying which of those two situations you are actually dealing with is often, I suspect, the crux of the design problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, the difference between the &#8220;find the way to beat the Epic boss&#8221; and &#8220;find the obscure path to get to the Epic boss&#8221; is that the former entails a finite and well-understood set of options for action, only a few of which will lead to eventual success, while the latter encompasses unlimited possible options with no precedent or prompting to guide a player to an eventual solution.  Ambiguity within a defined and universally understood (and good luck with that) set of options might be workable; ambiguity in a limitless set of options is frustrating and largely pointless.  </p>
<p>&#8230; and identifying which of those two situations you are actually dealing with is often, I suspect, the crux of the design problem.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74788</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74788</guid>
		<description>Pretty much, Jason. If you explore, especially if later you get a quest for that area, you've basically been penalized for doing so. Bad. There are solutions, but some of those that I've come up with are too secret sauce to talk about on my blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty much, Jason. If you explore, especially if later you get a quest for that area, you&#8217;ve basically been penalized for doing so. Bad. There are solutions, but some of those that I&#8217;ve come up with are too secret sauce to talk about on my blog.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74787</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74787</guid>
		<description>World of Warcraft's breadcrumb design for quests, in my opinion, penalizes exploration.  Since quests are the best way (outside of buying gold or twinking) to level up and equip a character, stepping off the rails leading you from quest hub to quest hub to explore the world without defined goals actually drags your character progression to a comparative halt.  Sure it makes the game easy... but easy isn't always best.  Players being introduced to MMOs with WoW are start with such a gaming on rails experience, that they may never discover they prefer to play the game in other ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>World of Warcraft&#8217;s breadcrumb design for quests, in my opinion, penalizes exploration.  Since quests are the best way (outside of buying gold or twinking) to level up and equip a character, stepping off the rails leading you from quest hub to quest hub to explore the world without defined goals actually drags your character progression to a comparative halt.  Sure it makes the game easy&#8230; but easy isn&#8217;t always best.  Players being introduced to MMOs with WoW are start with such a gaming on rails experience, that they may never discover they prefer to play the game in other ways.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TK</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74767</link>
		<dc:creator>TK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74767</guid>
		<description>Entirely valid points; don't expect players to know every little detail or no details at all. A good balance, possibly not even a map cursor~ instead land marks or a little check list to go through to discover quests. I can see that as being a fun little design, especially for quests designed for newer players; objectives leading them from the giant clock tower mid town, to the market corner, and finally to their destination in a dark alley way just south of the wizard's tower.

Though I have to admit I've got absolutely nothing against the whole 'map tells you where to go' method of quest finding but exploration is just so much more fun. Whats the point of building a huge, beautiful immersing world if you're just going to have us do a quick run by the map before moving onto the next?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Entirely valid points; don&#8217;t expect players to know every little detail or no details at all. A good balance, possibly not even a map cursor~ instead land marks or a little check list to go through to discover quests. I can see that as being a fun little design, especially for quests designed for newer players; objectives leading them from the giant clock tower mid town, to the market corner, and finally to their destination in a dark alley way just south of the wizard&#8217;s tower.</p>
<p>Though I have to admit I&#8217;ve got absolutely nothing against the whole &#8216;map tells you where to go&#8217; method of quest finding but exploration is just so much more fun. Whats the point of building a huge, beautiful immersing world if you&#8217;re just going to have us do a quick run by the map before moving onto the next?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Genda</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74760</link>
		<dc:creator>Genda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74760</guid>
		<description>Just point me in the right direction.  I don't need to be walked over there, but I should see affirmation that I chose correctly when I get there (i.e. lots of quest givers, harvestables, etc.)

Just please don't make me ask my friends where I should be going next.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just point me in the right direction.  I don&#8217;t need to be walked over there, but I should see affirmation that I chose correctly when I get there (i.e. lots of quest givers, harvestables, etc.)</p>
<p>Just please don&#8217;t make me ask my friends where I should be going next.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74759</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74759</guid>
		<description>It doesn't have to be a narrow tunnel. If there are 4 zones for their level range, they should be generally aware of each of them. If they get a (short) quest from Hub A, it should be closer to Hub A than Hub B. If they've completed a quest, the NPC who gave it to them should be marked on the map.

Unless something involves exploration as part of the challenge, ambiguity about the location is bad game design.

A lot of it, particularly for quests, doesn't need to come down to outright hand-holding. It's more about good content design than anything, really. While adventuring in a level-appropriate area, maybe there is an evil looking cliff to the north with a narrow path leading up and tougher mobs on the path than below.

As I mentioned before, quests should generally deal with only the areas within a particular radius of the quest hub--more specifically, it should be closer to the quest hub you got the quest than to the next one. The next hub should be in an area where there are higher level mobs, and so on.

It's more about naturally leading players to their (hopefully) many options, not forcing them to go to them or giving them a "go to next place I need to go" button.

And yeah, the general directions and POI references in quest text are always good ("the bandit camp to the north, in the shadow of the great tree").</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t have to be a narrow tunnel. If there are 4 zones for their level range, they should be generally aware of each of them. If they get a (short) quest from Hub A, it should be closer to Hub A than Hub B. If they&#8217;ve completed a quest, the NPC who gave it to them should be marked on the map.</p>
<p>Unless something involves exploration as part of the challenge, ambiguity about the location is bad game design.</p>
<p>A lot of it, particularly for quests, doesn&#8217;t need to come down to outright hand-holding. It&#8217;s more about good content design than anything, really. While adventuring in a level-appropriate area, maybe there is an evil looking cliff to the north with a narrow path leading up and tougher mobs on the path than below.</p>
<p>As I mentioned before, quests should generally deal with only the areas within a particular radius of the quest hub&#8211;more specifically, it should be closer to the quest hub you got the quest than to the next one. The next hub should be in an area where there are higher level mobs, and so on.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s more about naturally leading players to their (hopefully) many options, not forcing them to go to them or giving them a &#8220;go to next place I need to go&#8221; button.</p>
<p>And yeah, the general directions and POI references in quest text are always good (&#8221;the bandit camp to the north, in the shadow of the great tree&#8221;).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74757</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74757</guid>
		<description>In mild defense of Sony... they actually are following a precident.  Epics 1 and 1.5 in the original EQ.  Each was announced with "Epics are in! Good luck!"  It took a couple months before a monk had the balls enough to hand in a nice item (Robe of the Whistling Fists) to an NPC, back when NPCs used to just say "Thanks!" and eat items they didn't need, to discover that the guys in Erudin and Timerous Deep and their rare books were the beginning of the Celestial Fists quest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In mild defense of Sony&#8230; they actually are following a precident.  Epics 1 and 1.5 in the original EQ.  Each was announced with &#8220;Epics are in! Good luck!&#8221;  It took a couple months before a monk had the balls enough to hand in a nice item (Robe of the Whistling Fists) to an NPC, back when NPCs used to just say &#8220;Thanks!&#8221; and eat items they didn&#8217;t need, to discover that the guys in Erudin and Timerous Deep and their rare books were the beginning of the Celestial Fists quest.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Talyn</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/comment-page-1/#comment-74753</link>
		<dc:creator>Talyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/02/11/pc-load-letter-yes-this-is-about-game-design/#comment-74753</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Players should know where they can go to gain levels, they should know where to go to get new spells, how to embark on a crafting career, where to actually do a quest they’ve already obtained.&lt;/i&gt;

Yet players incessantly ask where to go next. Do we want to lead players by the nose like WoW and LOTRO have, funneling their game experiences through the same narrow tunnel? Do we have enough faith in players to allow them the freedom to explore on their own? (Apparently not?) Most of the quest-based games will at least give a quest to briefly enter a new zone so the player should be able to say "aha! A new area to adventure in, and it's higher level content than I currently use, I'll keep this in mind."

Much of this comes down to visual cues, such as how to know where to start crafting. Vanguard did a cool thing recently, rather than relying on the single icon signifying an available quest, they now have three quest icons, one for each sphere of the game. So we know immediately if that NPC has an adventuring quest, a crafting quest, or a diplomacy quest. Taking that simple idea just might solve some of the confusion if a new player sees all these NPC's with a yellow ! then one single NPC has something different and it turns out to be the "introduction to crafting professions" quest.

Writing can also help with much confusion. I don't know how much hand-holding we really *need* in these games. A certain amount is nice, but it was quite the culture shock when I started Vanguard with it's dramatic lack of hand-holding even in areas I'd never realized that I was being hand-held. Ya don't know what ya got til it's gone, indeed. But, WoW and Vanguard both have fairly terrible writing in their quest dialogue. Every designer could take note of the great strides LOTRO took with their quests. Nearly every MMO I've ever played, I just skip to the end and click 'accept' because, let's be honest, who cares what the NPC is saying, just get to the point: how many murloc heads do you need so I can get this garbage over with? LOTRO's quests are entertaining to read, they breathe some life into NPC's and they have just enough cues with directions, mentioning prominent landmarks, etc. that players can find what they're looking for without undue effort but also not tugging too hard on a leash and leading them directly to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Players should know where they can go to gain levels, they should know where to go to get new spells, how to embark on a crafting career, where to actually do a quest they’ve already obtained.</i></p>
<p>Yet players incessantly ask where to go next. Do we want to lead players by the nose like WoW and LOTRO have, funneling their game experiences through the same narrow tunnel? Do we have enough faith in players to allow them the freedom to explore on their own? (Apparently not?) Most of the quest-based games will at least give a quest to briefly enter a new zone so the player should be able to say &#8220;aha! A new area to adventure in, and it&#8217;s higher level content than I currently use, I&#8217;ll keep this in mind.&#8221;</p>
<p>Much of this comes down to visual cues, such as how to know where to start crafting. Vanguard did a cool thing recently, rather than relying on the single icon signifying an available quest, they now have three quest icons, one for each sphere of the game. So we know immediately if that NPC has an adventuring quest, a crafting quest, or a diplomacy quest. Taking that simple idea just might solve some of the confusion if a new player sees all these NPC&#8217;s with a yellow ! then one single NPC has something different and it turns out to be the &#8220;introduction to crafting professions&#8221; quest.</p>
<p>Writing can also help with much confusion. I don&#8217;t know how much hand-holding we really *need* in these games. A certain amount is nice, but it was quite the culture shock when I started Vanguard with it&#8217;s dramatic lack of hand-holding even in areas I&#8217;d never realized that I was being hand-held. Ya don&#8217;t know what ya got til it&#8217;s gone, indeed. But, WoW and Vanguard both have fairly terrible writing in their quest dialogue. Every designer could take note of the great strides LOTRO took with their quests. Nearly every MMO I&#8217;ve ever played, I just skip to the end and click &#8216;accept&#8217; because, let&#8217;s be honest, who cares what the NPC is saying, just get to the point: how many murloc heads do you need so I can get this garbage over with? LOTRO&#8217;s quests are entertaining to read, they breathe some life into NPC&#8217;s and they have just enough cues with directions, mentioning prominent landmarks, etc. that players can find what they&#8217;re looking for without undue effort but also not tugging too hard on a leash and leading them directly to it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
