Dear Prokofy Neva
Prokofy, the reason we hate RMT isn’t because we want to keep our games pure — that’s the reason it leaves a bad taste in our mouth. The reason we hate RMT is because gold farmers dramatically harm gameplay. They grief. They train mobs on others (getting them killed), they kill everything in sight so others can’t, and they constantly spam. We hate RMT because of the gold farmers who make playing games frustrating and unfun (they’re our equivalent of vandals and sim-crashers in Second Life). Hopefully that clears up some of the misunderstanding. If you’re confused, here’s a link: Broken Toys.
They also tend to throw the economy off balance.
“They also tend to throw the economy off balance.”
While I agree with all the points listed in the original post, this quote here is the one thing about the RMT debate that I disagree with. If there were no farmers then individual players that are purchasing from them would go get that gold themselves and the net effect to the economy would be identical to not having farmers. Yes, the farmers do inflate the total currency in existance, but most of it is in their bank accounts where it doesn’t effect the economy. It’s not until it’s purchased and subsequently spent by the purchaser that it enters the general economy, and at that point it’s no different than if they went and got it themselves.
Farming in general might hurt an economy, but farming-for-sale is no different than the farming-for-use that all players do anyway.
I think you have a lot of misunderstandings — or else fallacious utopian beliefs –about how RMT works even in real life.
When you criminalize free trade, only…criminals engage in free trade.
That’s why you see the thuggish behaviour you do.
Legalize the trade, as some games and worlds have, and you have harnessed legitimate and normal human activity, and then can more easily identify and prosecute the criminals, i.e. those who use fraud, spamming.
Sure, that makes some sense. It doesn’t stop the criminals from the practice, though, as exhibited in a game I worked on that allowed RMT on specific servers (EverQuest II). That’s one of the parts that sucks. Making it okay to do on specific servers gives the legit players a great place to go participate in RMT, but it also gives the criminal types a place to plague just as much (and they didn’t leave the non-RMT servers either).
Meaning, that thuggish behavior will continue no matter what you do. I’m not sure how legalizing real money transactions makes it easier to identify and prosecute the criminals. Would it become evident because you have a knowledge of the volume they trade (if it’s super high, they must be automating the process in some way)? Would it be because players would be losing real money due to them, and would report them more vigorously?
Either way, I still believe that RMT is the wrong approach for most traditional massively multiplayer games (EverQuest, World of Warcraft, etc.). Much of the game is earning all of the things you can get through RMT (money, items, character progression), and would therefore be a core violation of the intent of the game.
If a game follows a different design, then RMT is a great option that I would fully support. For example, Second Life (whether it’s a game or not) is a great place for real money trade to take place. It was created in such a way that RMT supports the goals of the project, rather than runs counter to it. Whether more games or virtual worlds should be designed in a way that supports RMT is more a matter of personal opinion than anything else, so suggesting one direction is the wrong path is probably not worthwhile.
Fallacious utopian beliefs? You’re quite full of yourself arn’t you? Or you like engaging in overly dramatic rhetoric.
Oh and stop being a douche.
I think other good Second Life examples would be adfarmers (who use extortion to drive up land prices) and land barons that use bots to take advantage of people’s mistakes. Both make money from their endeavors, and both are harmful to Second Life.
Even if you could do so without going counter to the game’s goals, legalizing RMT is not a silver bullet with a supernormal ability to make things all better. It doesn’t help with identifying and prosecuting criminals, as it doesn’t remove the underlying need to identify patterns and call attention to them. At best, it makes the channels of trade easier to monitor, but will not magically identify bad behavior driving the trade.
They didn’t leave the non-RMT servers because their clients didn’t. And you can’t blame them, server transfers devalue a game for a player.
Had it been a clear option from the beginning, with more support, it might’ve been different.
I’m confused about all of the demonization. Really, RMT is what makes MMOs interesting and different.
I’ve actually had farmers help me out by filling out a quest group in EQ2. But then again, people are generally nicer in that world than WoW, so it is also probably an exception for the farmers, too.
Anyway, the whole point was to draw the line between what is criminal and what is merely trade. If you lump trade into the evil bin, you shouldn’t be offended when somebody calls you a commie.
Do not feed the trolls.
I take offense at the misuse of my good name.
Jeez, you had to go and use her name. Time-to-Prok was 54 minutes…
The irony in Prokofy’s tirades is that she is upset that people who dare try to ban RMT forcing their style of play on her… but yet she espouses a policy of making RMT work everywhere forcing her style of play on everyone…
I had a much longer response typed out, but I think I’ll instead go with something brief…
Basically, when you say you hate gold farmers because they grief and spam, I don’t read that as an RMT problem, I read that as simply a support problem. Having a significant number of players who wish to essentially trade money for time in your game because they value an aspect of your traditional MMOG (socialization, combat) other than the original ‘intent of the game’ (time-consuming character advancement) should be something you take as a compliment, rather than something which brings forth ire.
I wholeheartedly agree that in MMORPGs, RMT is a liability. It used to really irk me (nice wording for ‘piss me the #%! off’) to see newbies getting fluffed or standing behind walls scripting or…
I was the guy who dragged things on them. And I loved watching some high level beasties slay the little schmucks. I did. I would continue to , but I honestly agree with the ‘bad taste in mouth’ and in games, at the first sign of gaming the game, I leave. It devalues my own work to build a decent character/rep. It devalues the whole experience. Thats why I, quite simply, don’t play ‘em anymore.
In non-MMORPG worlds, though, RMT does make sense (if only it would work right). In gameplay, RMT is DUMB. In other virtual worlds that are not based on game play, RMT makes sense.
If you can get rid of the gold farmers in a decent MMORPG, lemme know. I’m in.
“quote from Prokofy: When you criminalize free trade, only…criminals engage in free trade.
That’s why you see the thuggish behaviour you do.
Legalize the trade, as some games and worlds have, and you have harnessed legitimate and normal human activity, and then can more easily identify and prosecute the criminals, i.e. those who use fraud, spamming.”
So, by legalizing an act which only criminals engage in, you then free these people from their bonds of criminality, and its only the ones who do “other” criminal activities that you have to worry about. That’s like legalizing Meth because some people do it because you want to “harness legitimate and normal human activity”. Curiosity is human. Addiction is also human.
It’s true that RMT is not illegal. However, violating user agreements that you have accepted (yes, even farmers have to click “yes, i agree”), agreed to as part of playing the game/using the product, is illegal. Its a violation of a legal document.
Admittedly, on the EQ2 server I play on, I know people buy gold. Legitimizing it won’t get rid of farmers. It’ll simply mean that those who want to buy gold but dont want to support farmers will buy it legitimately. Farmers, however, won’t go away. They’ll become more agressive because their livelyhood is on the line, as is human nature. Gold selling companies will get more agressive (okay, that’s a theory, but supported by human nature). So, RMT isn’t dumb in all cases, but in some cases, it’s better to just leave it out. Let the MMO companies decide for themselves whether or not RMT is for them, since its not your call Prokofy, nor is it mine.
The enforceability of shrinkwrap and clickwrap End-User License Agreements is a murky area of contract law.
More importantly, most breaches of contract are not criminal and thus not illegal or unlawful. For example, breaking a promise would normally not result in a criminal case subjecting you to criminal penalties, such as imprisonment and fines. Breaking a promise, however, could subject you to a civil suit that might result in money damages.
When you compound the issue with the fact that minors can disaffirm nearly any agreement at any time during the age of minority, and the fact that there exists little means to remedy breaches conducted overseas, enforceability is increasingly difficult.
“The irony in Prokofy’s tirades is that she is upset that people who dare try to ban RMT forcing their style of play on her… but yet she espouses a policy of making RMT work everywhere forcing her style of play on everyone…”
The irony is that someone is saying “don’t ban people,” you’re saying “ban them,” and think you’re the one who can indict her for “forcing” anything.
[...] Here. [...]
Oh PLEASE…. I am amazed at how long Neva’s festering resentment and wild-eyed conspiracy bullshit has been feted on the web . Especially since now, in 2009, it appears she is being employed by Linden Lab to muddy forum issues so that real, constructive conversations on SL issues can never take place. What are they paying you, Prok? Free tier perhaps, or are you on their payroll straight out?
This kind of crap is the very reason Prokofy Neva now thinks her opinion on anything is relevant. Anybody who reads her whining knows that she simply needs a man…. BADLY. If she remembers what to do with one. Come to think of it, with her sexually confused in-world persona and her nasty little social skills problem, (plus the fact her RL pic reveals her to be a fat, slobby, middle aged butch), simply puts the fact she EVER knew what to do with one in serious doubt.