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	<title>Comments on: MMO Development Lesson #31</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/</link>
	<description>Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75657</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75657</guid>
		<description>I don't have an issue with providing basic templates for progression choices, particularly if there are a lot of choices for a player to make. In a game like WoW, I could see them giving 3 basic talent templates (one for each tree) that players could use as a starting point. Games like Neverwinter Nights do this and it makes it really easy just to coast through knowing that you aren't making "bad" decisions.

As i player, I wouldn't use those suggested templates at all, but I'm an experienced gamer. Newer gamers would definitely benefit from the templates. It's a little touchy, though, because it seems like these are the recommended specs from the designers, and any other choices could be inferior. I think most players are intelligent enough to recognize that they probably aren't the optimal template for any given playstyle, though.

Anyway, offering default templates for players would also allow designers to give more options without them being overwhelming, which is a good thing (it doesn't eliminate that it makes it more difficult to balance, but it still fixes one issue).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have an issue with providing basic templates for progression choices, particularly if there are a lot of choices for a player to make. In a game like WoW, I could see them giving 3 basic talent templates (one for each tree) that players could use as a starting point. Games like Neverwinter Nights do this and it makes it really easy just to coast through knowing that you aren&#8217;t making &#8220;bad&#8221; decisions.</p>
<p>As i player, I wouldn&#8217;t use those suggested templates at all, but I&#8217;m an experienced gamer. Newer gamers would definitely benefit from the templates. It&#8217;s a little touchy, though, because it seems like these are the recommended specs from the designers, and any other choices could be inferior. I think most players are intelligent enough to recognize that they probably aren&#8217;t the optimal template for any given playstyle, though.</p>
<p>Anyway, offering default templates for players would also allow designers to give more options without them being overwhelming, which is a good thing (it doesn&#8217;t eliminate that it makes it more difficult to balance, but it still fixes one issue).</p>
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		<title>By: Mayhem</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75621</link>
		<dc:creator>Mayhem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75621</guid>
		<description>People turn to web guides to help them with character progression choices.  Perhaps make these guides part of the game - offer those power templates as a package choice, and let experienced players tinker with individual parts of them if they choose.   Of course, few designers recognize the power templates until people have been screaming for months on the forums, so maybe that's not such a good idea.  

I've never heard any players complain that character classes weren't cookie-cutter enough (unless you count demands for "respec" as a symptom of that problem), but the lack of freedom in determining character progression is a common complaint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People turn to web guides to help them with character progression choices.  Perhaps make these guides part of the game - offer those power templates as a package choice, and let experienced players tinker with individual parts of them if they choose.   Of course, few designers recognize the power templates until people have been screaming for months on the forums, so maybe that&#8217;s not such a good idea.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never heard any players complain that character classes weren&#8217;t cookie-cutter enough (unless you count demands for &#8220;respec&#8221; as a symptom of that problem), but the lack of freedom in determining character progression is a common complaint.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75607</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75607</guid>
		<description>For me, it's not so much that it's hard to make the "perfect" choice because of too many options, it's because I have NO idea where to even start! When you're completely overwhelmed by all kinds of crap you've hardly even begun to understand the significance of, problems come up. Basically, the problem is the learning curve is way the @#$% too steep. A great example is teaching a new player all of the D&#38;D mechanics. Seriously, give someone who's never played D&#38;D a copy of Neverwinter Nights and see how absolutely horrible their character is in terms of strength because they really don't know the value or significance of the stats they're picking, skills, etc etc.

Basically, keep it simple and gradually introduce your player into the more complex aspects of the game. Good: Having a low-level pet-based class have a few damage abilities, a pet heal, maybe a couple buffs/debuffs. As they get higher in level give them more utility and abilities, maybe adding some crowd control abilities like stuns and roots, different AE abilities, new ways to customize their pet. Bad: Giving them all of that from that get-go. People need to be eased into the system. WoW does a good job of this IMHO, but partly because they've managed to keep choices meaningful without overloading the system with tons of random crap.

And for the love of god, don't ask for important decisions to be made at character creation that a newbie won't understand the consequences of until 50 levels and 70+ hours of gameplay in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, it&#8217;s not so much that it&#8217;s hard to make the &#8220;perfect&#8221; choice because of too many options, it&#8217;s because I have NO idea where to even start! When you&#8217;re completely overwhelmed by all kinds of crap you&#8217;ve hardly even begun to understand the significance of, problems come up. Basically, the problem is the learning curve is way the @#$% too steep. A great example is teaching a new player all of the D&amp;D mechanics. Seriously, give someone who&#8217;s never played D&amp;D a copy of Neverwinter Nights and see how absolutely horrible their character is in terms of strength because they really don&#8217;t know the value or significance of the stats they&#8217;re picking, skills, etc etc.</p>
<p>Basically, keep it simple and gradually introduce your player into the more complex aspects of the game. Good: Having a low-level pet-based class have a few damage abilities, a pet heal, maybe a couple buffs/debuffs. As they get higher in level give them more utility and abilities, maybe adding some crowd control abilities like stuns and roots, different AE abilities, new ways to customize their pet. Bad: Giving them all of that from that get-go. People need to be eased into the system. WoW does a good job of this IMHO, but partly because they&#8217;ve managed to keep choices meaningful without overloading the system with tons of random crap.</p>
<p>And for the love of god, don&#8217;t ask for important decisions to be made at character creation that a newbie won&#8217;t understand the consequences of until 50 levels and 70+ hours of gameplay in.</p>
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		<title>By: Boon</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75592</link>
		<dc:creator>Boon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75592</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite="Blackguard"&gt;Even for the people like me, there’s a point that there are just too many options, and I become gun-shy about making bad choices.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Could it be that the game has a poor design if there are choices that can be made that are seen as worthless to the players class?  You'll also have to look at the fact that the 'game' might be trying to give multiple choices to better fit the different play styles of gamers they are trying to attract.

But I do feel that a fundamental design philosophy should be that of making sure each skill / attribute / spell in a game has multiplayer instances of need in the game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="Blackguard"><p>Even for the people like me, there’s a point that there are just too many options, and I become gun-shy about making bad choices.</p></blockquote>
<p>Could it be that the game has a poor design if there are choices that can be made that are seen as worthless to the players class?  You&#8217;ll also have to look at the fact that the &#8216;game&#8217; might be trying to give multiple choices to better fit the different play styles of gamers they are trying to attract.</p>
<p>But I do feel that a fundamental design philosophy should be that of making sure each skill / attribute / spell in a game has multiplayer instances of need in the game.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75573</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 07:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75573</guid>
		<description>I would turn this reasoning from something to avoid to something to do, and that would be:

- Make sure to design chunkable game mechanics.

Too many options becomes a failure in this regard. Becomes "Kosterian Noise"...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would turn this reasoning from something to avoid to something to do, and that would be:</p>
<p>- Make sure to design chunkable game mechanics.</p>
<p>Too many options becomes a failure in this regard. Becomes &#8220;Kosterian Noise&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Waldo</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75563</link>
		<dc:creator>Waldo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75563</guid>
		<description>Makes me think of EVE Online.  The character creation process is just hugely daunting to me.  Too many choices that have no clear reason for making them.   You have to decide on your race and all kinds of other issues when you don't even know really what you are going to do or how the whole system works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makes me think of EVE Online.  The character creation process is just hugely daunting to me.  Too many choices that have no clear reason for making them.   You have to decide on your race and all kinds of other issues when you don&#8217;t even know really what you are going to do or how the whole system works.</p>
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		<title>By: JuJtsu</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75562</link>
		<dc:creator>JuJtsu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75562</guid>
		<description>Here's a better link to support the "too many choices is bad" side.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun04/toomany.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a better link to support the &#8220;too many choices is bad&#8221; side.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun04/toomany.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun04/toomany.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75561</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75561</guid>
		<description>I appear to have not submitted my comment. I have at least two more lessons to piggyback off this one related to choice. One deals with players making informed choices, the other deals with allowing them to change their decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appear to have not submitted my comment. I have at least two more lessons to piggyback off this one related to choice. One deals with players making informed choices, the other deals with allowing them to change their decisions.</p>
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		<title>By: JuJtsu</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75560</link>
		<dc:creator>JuJtsu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75560</guid>
		<description>"I always find myself waiting to distribute attribute points or whatever until I hit the level cap so I know how I’ll use my character and can make the most educated decision"

If it were fairly simple to re-spec your points as you went through the game and learned how you wanted to play would you still keep them in your pocket till the end?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I always find myself waiting to distribute attribute points or whatever until I hit the level cap so I know how I’ll use my character and can make the most educated decision&#8221;</p>
<p>If it were fairly simple to re-spec your points as you went through the game and learned how you wanted to play would you still keep them in your pocket till the end?</p>
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		<title>By: JuJtsu</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/04/07/mmo-development-lesson-31/#comment-75559</link>
		<dc:creator>JuJtsu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=486#comment-75559</guid>
		<description>This link may do in the short term  :smile: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

Segregating options into trees/classes etc is fine....that just organizes choices, it doesn't reduce them. Unless you restrict choices so that only an X can do Y....

Why is difficulty finding the "perfect profile" a problem and why is reducing choices a good solution?

If it takes too much time and money to have lots of choices, fine just say say so. But the 'it's too haaarrd to make up my mind' justification doesn't seem persuasive to me. Case in point: when is the last time you heard someone criticize City of Heros for having too many character creation choices?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This link may do in the short term  <img src='http://www.nerfbat.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':smile:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis</a></p>
<p>Segregating options into trees/classes etc is fine&#8230;.that just organizes choices, it doesn&#8217;t reduce them. Unless you restrict choices so that only an X can do Y&#8230;.</p>
<p>Why is difficulty finding the &#8220;perfect profile&#8221; a problem and why is reducing choices a good solution?</p>
<p>If it takes too much time and money to have lots of choices, fine just say say so. But the &#8216;it&#8217;s too haaarrd to make up my mind&#8217; justification doesn&#8217;t seem persuasive to me. Case in point: when is the last time you heard someone criticize City of Heros for having too many character creation choices?</p>
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