The Necessity of PvP
More than 50% of Age of Conan subscribers are on PvP servers, as noted by Funcom themselves. If WoW Census is accurate, more than 40% of World of Warcraft subscribers are on PvP servers. And yet, Player-versus-Player is sometimes neglected even in modern MMOs. What’s with the stigma?
PvP has been seen as niche for quite some time. Some of the old school massively multiplayer games are probably to blame (See: Ultima Online when it came out). Yeah, unrestricted PvP is scary. Letting players ruin the experience for other players IS a bad idea, whether it’s on a PvP server or not.
But it doesn’t have to be that way. You can create rewards for desirable behavior and consequences for undesirable behavior. You can restrict certain behaviors from even being possible if necessary. The point is, it’s possible to make PvP competitive and enjoyable without it being antagonistic and frustrating.
Even if players can ruin the experience for other players, PvP servers can still be popular. Currently in Age of Conan, you can attack anyone of any level, repeatedly kill a character, or camp zone entries without repercussions. They’re going to be punishing this type of griefing soon but, still, it’s worth mentioning because it shows that PvP is so desirable that people are willing to weather the mayhem to experience it.
Games that launch without PvP-dedicated servers or, at the very least, very deep Player-versus-Player systems and options are only hurting themselves. It’s time to shake the stigma about PvP and embrace that it has an vital role in MMO games.
And, as a person who prefers Player-versus-Player games or servers himself, I can’t wait to see what great PvP-focused games come out over the next several years. Now that it’s clear there is money in PvP and it’s not niche, I’m betting we start to see some high-budget PvP MMOs soon.
I’d never realised it was such a large percentage. This really does bring into question why PvP is so neglected, and generally an after-thought. As soon as developers appreciate the scale of players wanting to kill eachother, I’m sure it’ll mean exciting stuff for the MMO market!
I don’t think PvP is necessary, but the concept of competition between people is.
I personally greatly dislike PvP because of the antagonistic behavior and rudeness that permeates the atmosphere of such servers. As far as shaking the stigma, the chance has existed for how long and still hasn’t changed? Blizzard, prior to release, had an honor and dishonor system, but dropped the latter because who knows why. The _only_ game I see coming out that actually penalizes grief-like behavior is Warhammer Online.
I would currently prefer a game world where players are able to compete for control of various aspects in a PvE manner, meaning indirect competition of sorts. Like most things in MMOs that are looked down upon by more than a few people, though, you have to prove to me that it’s possible by doing it rather than by saying it. Actions are the only things I’ve learned to trust with MMOs, words I’ve learned to ignore.
Be careful… “lies, damn lies, and statistics…” and all that.
I know quite a few players that choose PvP servers because they want the OPTION to engage in PvP, even if 90% of the time they never exercise that option. They might be forced into an encounter on occasion, but the focus of their game is still primarily PvE. They’d just rather not restrict themselves from an alternate form of gameplay. Heck, you could say that all of the SWG servers were PvP, but IIRC less than 5% were ever OVERT rebel & imperial (PvP-enabled) and many of us had to have that enabled just so we could fight NPC stormtroopers instead of just shooting bantha.
Personally, I understand that there are the hardcore anti-PvP people out there, but I strongly dislike any segregated servers. We often talk about Bartle types… which really describes the different play preferences and their interdependencies… …then we build servers that are “PvP” or “PvE” or “Roleplay” specific.
I understand that there are extreme elements in every playstyle that aren’t very tolerant (or likeable) to the others, but I’ve come to believe we lose just as much by the segregation as we do by their conflicts. Of course, I’d hoped that RP-PVP desinated servers would manage to bring such a balance, but in my one experience with it, I just found “not enough critical mass for frequent engaging roleplay, not enough citical mass for frequent, engaging PvP”
cgoodno: Interestingly, and I’ve only truly realized this recently, I don’t care that much about competing with other players. Yet, I vastly prefer PvP servers to PvE servers. I enjoy dropping into battlegrounds and such sometimes, but I mostly care about being in a more open, dangerous world.
And, I really do think that people are more civil, at least verbally, on very open PvP servers than PvE servers. You can’t dominate a spawn on a PvP server because you can and will be killed for doing it. You can’t badmouth someone or they will kill you. Basically, a lot of the pain-in-the-ass behaviors you see on a PvE server in an MMO aren’t present on a PvP server.
Admittedly, there are griefers and such or those just simply like killing other players, so you WILL be killed sometimes. I’ve averaged less than two PvP deaths a day in Age of Conan, and most of those were by people of disproportionately higher level than me.
But, I love being able to kill people for…
- Having a dumbass name, like Konan in Age of Conan.
- Being in a guild with a dumbass name.
- Refusing to group to share quest kills.
- Camping a named spawn more than once.
- Acting like an idiot in chat.
- Randomly effing with other people to be a jerk.
- Etc.
On a PvE server, I just sit there frustrated about that stuff, while on a PvP server, I will kill that person (or fail at doing so, but at least I tried).
By the way, Funcom hasn’t given North American roleplayers a choice. There is no RP-PvE server.
“But you can roleplay anywhere, stop whining!” the non-roleplayers like to say.
Yeah, right there next to L33tdud3407 and Ikilugood.
Blackguard: That is exactly the point I made in this post on AoC’s upcoming PvP enhancements. No PvP system should discourage people from taking action against griefers (killstealers, etc.) because that is one of the best things about being on a FFA PvP server — players have recourse to deal with morons and jerks without peititioning GMs, who often can’t do anything because the offending player wasn’t violating any rules.
AoC’s new consequence system, as proposed, will actually give griefers more options for making other players miserable.
@Ryan: You don’t have to be competitive in order for their to be competitive elements to the game. PvP itself is a competition, the outcome resulting in a win, lose, or tie. But, in MMOs today there must be a competitive element, which is why many people are drawn to the games. I personally prefer indirect PvP/GvG elements rather than direct.
I’ve yet to experience the issues you’ve brought up with PvE since the early days of DAoC. At least not to a point that it angered me close to the feeling I’ve had from feeling like someone’s plaything on a PvP server for the sole reason that they can kill me without any thought towards encouraging them to not do so.
I would love to say that Funcom’s ideas will solve my personal issues with PvP servers, but as I said, I need to see it to believe it. Blizzard failed me with their removal of dishonor as a concept, hopefully Warhammer Online keeps to their ‘chicken griefing’ concept.
“I’m betting we start to see some high-budget PvP MMOs soon.”
Yeah and maybe SOE will put some money into Planetside.
Okay, how many of you ever played Lineage II?
The ideal of players policing themselves was the ideal of L2 and ultimately contributed to it’s downfall here in the US market. (yes, there were other issues…some huge that are part of the whole problem, I’m not denying that) But the unmitigated assiness that is part of the US mentality drove away a lot of players. It’s no fun being killed time after time, losing levels AND items in the process.
On my primary server one clan (guilds in L2) decided to terrorize everyone and keep them from leveling up to challenge them. So they systematically killed everyone. Repeatedly. It was brutal, and it was effective. Eventually people stopped trying…. well, most people.
I never thought I’d like a PvP game..ever. My boyfriend who introduced me to the game thought I’d hate it, but the great graphics and the beautiful characters hooked me first. And then once I was in… man there was something about PvP that just hooked me. I was stubborn and it didn’t matter if they killed me over and over, I refused to let them win. (If anyone is masochistic enough to read my journey in the game you can find it here .) There is a lot of extra excitement in playing on an open PvP world. You are always looking over your shoulder and you are more careful not to piss off random people. It’s also nice if someone is being a jerk you can let them know in pretty no uncertain terms that you don’t like what they are doing.
But virtual worlds have their share of bullies and if you don’t have a reasonable mechanic with which to control them, you just may find they have terrorized your subscription numbers. So… I think that if a designer is looking at implementing PvP and they want lessons on how people can abuse the system, they should look at the history of L2 in the North American market.
On the other hand, EVE Online is a one-server MMO that does not have distinct realms for PvP. It can happen anywhere, any time, and for any reason (with consequences in supposed “safe” areas, delivered by the “City Guard” counterpart, CONCORD)
@Jute: What happened to L2 also happened to DAoC’s mordred/andred servers. In the end, it felt like a second job to everyone who was trying to police everyone else. Once the realization set in that no matter what you did, people were going to grief in any way possible, the server populations pretty much bottomed out leaving only those who enjoy the chaos of FFA PvP. Last year when I checked those servers were still trying to get new players to join them, but the response was always the same: “Why, you run out of people to grief?”
I think most people find WoW’s PvP acceptable since it’s fairly controlled, much like DAoC’s normal RvR servers. I just rolled a Priest of Mitra (might switch to Bear Shaman) on one of the PvP RP servers and I haven’t been ganked yet, but two people have tried (hint: can’t fight in the water). New Player Help chat was also filled with complaints about people being ganked by people 10 levels higher than them. I’ll see it through, since that’s only the beginning levels, but I don’t think I’m going to see a huge change in those complaints personally.
Age of Conan is going to run into some pretty nasty reverse griefing (making the game think someone is griefing when they really aren’t) soon. They are going to start punishing players for killing people who are significantly lower level than they are. My first inclination? Make a level 20 character and go to a higher level zone, then get in front of people while they are fighting. BAM! I die, they get punished.
They’ll run into this more than other games because most of their combat is AoE in some way (you swing in an arc in front of you with melee attacks, for example). I’m not quite sure how they’ll prevent this myself. Maybe they’ll label zones as being for certain level ranges, and if you get killed in there as a lower level player, there will be no repercussions for the higher level player.
We’ll see how it plays out. But they’re at least planning on punishing players for killing characters of lower level or for killing the same character repeatedly. In both those cases, I can see some very easy methods of reverse griefing others. Even as a higher level character, I could jump off a cliff then hop in front of the same character many times in a row to make the game think they are repeatedly killing me (they are, but it’s because I am griefing them, yet they will be punished).
“In both those cases, I can see some very easy methods of reverse griefing others.”
Asshats will always find a way. If you can easily see some easy methods you can count on the more dedicated griefers finding more. That’s why I’m so sceptical of all the ’self policing’ proposals. I want hard coded PvP switches at the very least or, even better, complete segregation.
Does EVE have any mechanics to control PvP? If not, have you seen the same kinds of abuse that seem rampant in other games with PvP?
I agree that the AoC measures being put in place are way too prone to reverse griefing. One can only hope they will test them pretty throughly but given the bugs they’ve introduced after patching, I’m not holding my breath.
I originally rolled on a PvE server, but I may move over to a PvP server. I found myself frustrated that I couldn’t smack a spawn stealer. Ahhh how bloodthirsty I’ve become.
EVE basically has security levels for different areas of space…ranked 1 through 5, 1 being the most secure space. This makes sense in a space MMO where electrical monitoring equipment can help keep the peace. AoC also has a similar system, just wrapped in a different package. There are areas you can’t PvP at all. There are areas where guards will attack those causing harm to others in PvP areas. In EVE, however, the game is so expansive that there is always a safe way to most destinations. May take longer to get to your destination to stay safe, but that’s the trade off. You can basically get out of being forced to PvP. In AoC and other games, I can see where FFA PvP may seem REALLY forced because there isn’t a way to avoid it ah la EVE.
On a personal note, I’m jazzed about playing on an FFA PvP server in AoC. I miss those days back in UO. It’s fun to outsmart real players. Last night, I had an 80 guardian gank me from behind. As a ranger, I can trap. I dropped a trap, ran behind a rock and went stealth. It was just as good as getting a kill.
Er, Eve’s security ratings are 1 to -1 actually. FFA PVP in anything lower than 0.5, 0.5 to 1 the cops show up and kill the aggressor. “Griefing” is not allowed, but the definition of griefing is somewhat narrow. Stealing, scamming, espionage, backstabbing, etc.; you name it, it’s probably ok.
That’s right. I knew fives played a part in there somewhere. Haven’t played in several years.
There was also a bounty system in EVE to balance out the “criminal” aspect.
I hate PVP and will never play on a PVP server. If a game does not have PVE servers I simply won’t play that game. I am quite happy playing in a PVE world. Sure there are things that are a PITA — as Blackguard mentioned, but they don’t outwieght the PITA that is PVP.
To me the problem with PVP is the griefing, the rude players, the kiddies that level in a hurry then sit and kill newbies. I think PVP attracts the worst types in an MMO. Also I find that by and large is attracts too many kids. Also I have found the language in Chat to be far more offensive in PVP than on PVE.
Granted I have not played PVP much, but every time I experience it, it is such a negative experience that I avoid it like the plague. I have never had anything but a negative experience on PVP and to me it leeches the fun I get out of the game.
@ Coriolanus,
It really varies from community to community. EQ2’s Nagafen server, for example, was pretty god-awful and disrespectful in terms of its community. I met much more mature people on WoW’s PvP servers, and had a LOT more fun there.