Comments on: Blizzard 1, MDY 0 http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/ Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder. Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:21:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: robusticus http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79025 robusticus Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:49:10 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79025 We'll see if there is an appeal about the contract stuff and what the appellate court says. It is in San Francisco (?) and a ruling there in favor of MDY just enables a trial. Which is all very expensive, way more money than Glider ever made. Since this is cybercourt we can just say the original ruling for the contract issue took into account actions taken when Blizzard was in fact operating as a government institution, albeit one from the 1300s, vis-a-vis regulation of the commons, which is the purview of the government itself, particularly the judicial branch, not Blizzard's CSRs. We’ll see if there is an appeal about the contract stuff and what the appellate court says. It is in San Francisco (?) and a ruling there in favor of MDY just enables a trial. Which is all very expensive, way more money than Glider ever made.

Since this is cybercourt we can just say the original ruling for the contract issue took into account actions taken when Blizzard was in fact operating as a government institution, albeit one from the 1300s, vis-a-vis regulation of the commons, which is the purview of the government itself, particularly the judicial branch, not Blizzard’s CSRs.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79023 Bryan Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:45:19 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79023 You know, the data copying bit always makes me jumpy. Checking what I have in RAM is none of your damn business (though not actually illegal - notice that for instance the fourth amendment only applies to the government, which Blizzard is definitely not). But there is such a thing as tortious interference, and going after MMOGlider on those grounds? Totally legitimate and MMOGlider is probably going to lose. You know, the data copying bit always makes me jumpy. Checking what I have in RAM is none of your damn business (though not actually illegal - notice that for instance the fourth amendment only applies to the government, which Blizzard is definitely not).

But there is such a thing as tortious interference, and going after MMOGlider on those grounds? Totally legitimate and MMOGlider is probably going to lose.

]]> By: robusticus http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79022 robusticus Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:39:44 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79022 I think ultimately fair use trumps ownership rights but regulation of the commons determines fair use. In other words I would not think it unconstitutional to limit use to 20 hours per week per account, given that is how WoW is balanced. However I do think it is unconstitutional to govern what a user is running on their own PC, given the software in question is transformative, not at all a substitute, and copies a very very scant amount of data that is itself temporary in nature. It was built after WoW was published and the motive for its creation was not for profit. It is also a sort of parody and those are the classic fair use cases. Wasn't comparing the 2nd ammendment to the right to party. Was illustrating the importance of rights in our society. The 4th amendment I think comes in to play with the, accepting fair use, unlawful seek-and-destroy automatic countermeasures. I think ultimately fair use trumps ownership rights but regulation of the commons determines fair use. In other words I would not think it unconstitutional to limit use to 20 hours per week per account, given that is how WoW is balanced. However I do think it is unconstitutional to govern what a user is running on their own PC, given the software in question is transformative, not at all a substitute, and copies a very very scant amount of data that is itself temporary in nature. It was built after WoW was published and the motive for its creation was not for profit. It is also a sort of parody and those are the classic fair use cases.

Wasn’t comparing the 2nd ammendment to the right to party. Was illustrating the importance of rights in our society. The 4th amendment I think comes in to play with the, accepting fair use, unlawful seek-and-destroy automatic countermeasures.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79021 Bryan Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:06:24 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79021 robusticus - unless you're prepared to argue that the notion of software licensing is groundless, your fair use argument is more than a little bit of a stretch. If you enter into an agreement with Blizzard in order to use their product, then violate that agreement by running a bot, unless there's something illegal about the contractual requirement to not run a bot, you're in the wrong. If you don't like the terms of a contract, you are free to not enter into it in the first place. We have the "right" to bear arms because it's guaranteed to us by the founding document of our government. Right or wrong, we can debate that. There's certainly no "natural right" to guns (how could there be, guns being a product of human invention?); it's arbitrary - or rather it was judged worth the risks and nobody has successfully challenged it. If there was a right to bot in computer games, comparing bots and the second amendment would be valid. As is, it's silly. robusticus - unless you’re prepared to argue that the notion of software licensing is groundless, your fair use argument is more than a little bit of a stretch. If you enter into an agreement with Blizzard in order to use their product, then violate that agreement by running a bot, unless there’s something illegal about the contractual requirement to not run a bot, you’re in the wrong. If you don’t like the terms of a contract, you are free to not enter into it in the first place.

We have the “right” to bear arms because it’s guaranteed to us by the founding document of our government. Right or wrong, we can debate that. There’s certainly no “natural right” to guns (how could there be, guns being a product of human invention?); it’s arbitrary - or rather it was judged worth the risks and nobody has successfully challenged it. If there was a right to bot in computer games, comparing bots and the second amendment would be valid. As is, it’s silly.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79020 Bryan Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:54:38 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79020 The court decision isn't about surveillance in any way, though. Surveillance has nothing to do with it and never did. The issue is what to do with people who are clearly violating the law (in this case, interfering in contractual agreements for MMOGlider, violating their own contractual agreements for people using it), not how they are caught. The court decision isn’t about surveillance in any way, though. Surveillance has nothing to do with it and never did. The issue is what to do with people who are clearly violating the law (in this case, interfering in contractual agreements for MMOGlider, violating their own contractual agreements for people using it), not how they are caught.

]]> By: JuJutsu http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79017 JuJutsu Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:19:24 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79017 "This is one of the least seductive straw man arguments I’ve ever seen." It's hardly a straw man argument, it's a direct response to people telling me that the court decision only hurts botters. Exactly the same argument that people make about warrantless wiretaps....it's only bad for the guilty. I think the decision is bad for all software customers not just the ""Guilty"". “This is one of the least seductive straw man arguments I’ve ever seen.”

It’s hardly a straw man argument, it’s a direct response to people telling me that the court decision only hurts botters. Exactly the same argument that people make about warrantless wiretaps….it’s only bad for the guilty. I think the decision is bad for all software customers not just the “”Guilty”".

]]> By: robusticus http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79016 robusticus Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:43:14 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79016 Actually Bryan it is a fair use issue, which stems from the first amendment, free speech. It's also a bit of a net neutrality issue too. Just amazing how people can have such contrasting double standards depending on wether or not they are (or favor) the party in power. When the shoe gets put on the other foot people who yesterday scream oppression and talk about the bill of rights today calmly inform us we don't have the right to run software on our computers, we have no right to read our own RAM and if we don't like it we can commit virtual suicide. People will say the net is neutral so gamers shouldn't have to pay more but these same people will make a brilliant case on why WoW accounts should be capped at 20 hours a week to limit the "unfair advantage" people can gain over one another. We have the right to bear arms and thus have the highest violent crimes rate in the world. But we don't have the right to run bots, apparently, because people's virtual accomplishments might look a bit tarnished and it would be all the more apparent why contested carebear content sucks so bad, if we did. Actually Bryan it is a fair use issue, which stems from the first amendment, free speech. It’s also a bit of a net neutrality issue too. Just amazing how people can have such contrasting double standards depending on wether or not they are (or favor) the party in power. When the shoe gets put on the other foot people who yesterday scream oppression and talk about the bill of rights today calmly inform us we don’t have the right to run software on our computers, we have no right to read our own RAM and if we don’t like it we can commit virtual suicide. People will say the net is neutral so gamers shouldn’t have to pay more but these same people will make a brilliant case on why WoW accounts should be capped at 20 hours a week to limit the “unfair advantage” people can gain over one another.

We have the right to bear arms and thus have the highest violent crimes rate in the world. But we don’t have the right to run bots, apparently, because people’s virtual accomplishments might look a bit tarnished and it would be all the more apparent why contested carebear content sucks so bad, if we did.

]]> By: Bryan http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-79015 Bryan Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:16:09 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-79015 "I know. Lots of people can’t see why wiretapping could negatively impact anyone who doesn’t have anything to hide. I’m familiar with the mindset. I can say that more power going into the hands of companies and out of the hands of customers is a bad thing but it just disappears into the blindspot." This is one of the least seductive straw man arguments I've ever seen. Banning botters and prosecuting for tortious interference has nothing to do with wiretapping. It's not a means of surveillance; it's sentencing people who have already been caught (by whatever means) and convicted. The Warden thing is done to death, if that's your problem fine, play something else, but that's not what anyone else is talking about. Internet privacy is all well and good (and a bit of a joke), but it's a completely different topic. We're talking about Blizzard going after Glider, which is not even remotely the same thing. “I know. Lots of people can’t see why wiretapping could negatively impact anyone who doesn’t have anything to hide. I’m familiar with the mindset. I can say that more power going into the hands of companies and out of the hands of customers is a bad thing but it just disappears into the blindspot.”

This is one of the least seductive straw man arguments I’ve ever seen. Banning botters and prosecuting for tortious interference has nothing to do with wiretapping. It’s not a means of surveillance; it’s sentencing people who have already been caught (by whatever means) and convicted. The Warden thing is done to death, if that’s your problem fine, play something else, but that’s not what anyone else is talking about.

Internet privacy is all well and good (and a bit of a joke), but it’s a completely different topic. We’re talking about Blizzard going after Glider, which is not even remotely the same thing.

]]> By: Daven http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-78978 Daven Sat, 19 Jul 2008 13:21:25 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-78978 Ryan, I have never had my play experience affected by a Bot. I have never used one of these programs, sold/bought anything. If people want to do that I have no problem with it. Ryan, I have never had my play experience affected by a Bot. I have never used one of these programs, sold/bought anything. If people want to do that I have no problem with it.

]]> By: Nocte http://www.nerfbat.com/2008/07/14/blizzard-1-mdy-0/comment-page-1/#comment-78964 Nocte Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:15:25 +0000 http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=530#comment-78964 <blockquote cite="">...the rest of us, we think it’s just a way to play without it becoming a part or full time job.</blockquote> ORLY? <blockquote cite="The O-fficial Website">Glider is a tool that plays your World of Warcraft character for you, the way you want it. It grinds, it loots, it skins, it heals, it even farms soul shards... without you.</blockquote> The O-fficial Glider website say differently. Who's in the racing game? Me? I'm the guy that plays the 1 to 40 content everyone blows through. Endgame bores me. I'm the guy who contends with these bots daily.

…the rest of us, we think it’s just a way to play without it becoming a part or full time job.

ORLY?

Glider is a tool that plays your World of Warcraft character for you, the way you want it. It grinds, it loots, it skins, it heals, it even farms soul shards… without you.

The O-fficial Glider website say differently. Who’s in the racing game? Me? I’m the guy that plays the 1 to 40 content everyone blows through. Endgame bores me. I’m the guy who contends with these bots daily.

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