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	<title>Comments on: 3 Things Official/Unofficial Forums Do</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/</link>
	<description>Game design, development, and industry commentary by MMO Game Designer Ryan Shwayder.</description>
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		<title>By: How Much is a Community &#171; Adventures in Figuring Out MMO Design</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83290</link>
		<dc:creator>How Much is a Community &#171; Adventures in Figuring Out MMO Design</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83290</guid>
		<description>[...] post is mostly a critique of some points that Ryan Schwayder made on the pros and cons of official forums, but amongst all of that she makes some very [...]</description>
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<p>[...] post is mostly a critique of some points that Ryan Schwayder made on the pros and cons of official forums, but amongst all of that she makes some very [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Three things official/unofficial forums can and can&#8217;t do :How To Play Warhammer Online</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83181</link>
		<dc:creator>Three things official/unofficial forums can and can&#8217;t do :How To Play Warhammer Online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 14:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83181</guid>
		<description>[...] Shwayder, a game designer for 38 Studios, recently put in his two cents on the official vs. unofficial forums argument. He originally called official forums a necessary evil but when prompted by Warhammer Alliance [...]</description>
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<p>[...] Shwayder, a game designer for 38 Studios, recently put in his two cents on the official vs. unofficial forums argument. He originally called official forums a necessary evil but when prompted by Warhammer Alliance [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Why doesn't Aion's Official Site have forums? - Page 6 - AionSource.com</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83180</link>
		<dc:creator>Why doesn't Aion's Official Site have forums? - Page 6 - AionSource.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 13:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83180</guid>
		<description>[...] Posted by Dalqak   Actually, there was a quite timely post today over at NerfBat listing the 3 things that each forum (Official versus Unofficial) offers that the other does not.   [...]</description>
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<p>[...] Posted by Dalqak   Actually, there was a quite timely post today over at NerfBat listing the 3 things that each forum (Official versus Unofficial) offers that the other does not.   [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Garthilk</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83178</link>
		<dc:creator>Garthilk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83178</guid>
		<description>First, let me apologize for speaking bluntly. Second, Ryan, it&#039;s not often that professionals of your stature speak so publicly about such things. It&#039;s refreshing and I encourage you to keep it up. Third, I made a crazy long post. But the internet ate it, so I&#039;m just going to respond to the 3rd point, or at least half of the third point right now.

&lt;b&gt;&quot;Thereâ€™s no reliable or safe way to get players connected to their game accounts through non-company websites or applications.&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

The fact that so many people believe this upsets me. There are about a dozen different ways to approach this issue. Each, safe, secure, reliable. The easiest way perhaps, would be a single use, unique generated key created by an account center, that is validated on a fansite. There are more invasive ways however. To put it bluntly and in plain terms, a script has a piece of data, checks it against a developers database (that contains no personal information), returns a value and then performs an action based on that value. Or even worse, a developer has an API which can do the validation securely and safely.

Developer produced APIs the empower the external community, that&#039;s crazy talk! I mean why do we want to empower a community we don&#039;t moderate, control, or have the ability to spin the company line? 

&lt;b&gt;&quot;Game-centric social networks, tight coupling between the forums and armory, in-game access to forums and website information, forum and site-based access to certain game systems, etc.&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

So how much does a developer social network cost? 1 million? 5 million? 10 million? How much did sites like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wowdb.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wowdb.com&lt;/a&gt; cost the developer? This site, it has an API so guilds and link items, post guild rosters, character profiles, all on their own guild forums. Where are those kind of community empowering offerings? You don&#039;t see them because of...

Two words, Disney World. 

But more on Disney World another time....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, let me apologize for speaking bluntly. Second, Ryan, it&#8217;s not often that professionals of your stature speak so publicly about such things. It&#8217;s refreshing and I encourage you to keep it up. Third, I made a crazy long post. But the internet ate it, so I&#8217;m just going to respond to the 3rd point, or at least half of the third point right now.</p>
<p><b>&#8220;Thereâ€™s no reliable or safe way to get players connected to their game accounts through non-company websites or applications.&#8221;</b></p>
<p>The fact that so many people believe this upsets me. There are about a dozen different ways to approach this issue. Each, safe, secure, reliable. The easiest way perhaps, would be a single use, unique generated key created by an account center, that is validated on a fansite. There are more invasive ways however. To put it bluntly and in plain terms, a script has a piece of data, checks it against a developers database (that contains no personal information), returns a value and then performs an action based on that value. Or even worse, a developer has an API which can do the validation securely and safely.</p>
<p>Developer produced APIs the empower the external community, that&#8217;s crazy talk! I mean why do we want to empower a community we don&#8217;t moderate, control, or have the ability to spin the company line? </p>
<p><b>&#8220;Game-centric social networks, tight coupling between the forums and armory, in-game access to forums and website information, forum and site-based access to certain game systems, etc.&#8221;</b></p>
<p>So how much does a developer social network cost? 1 million? 5 million? 10 million? How much did sites like <a href="http://www.wowdb.com" rel="nofollow">Wowdb.com</a> cost the developer? This site, it has an API so guilds and link items, post guild rosters, character profiles, all on their own guild forums. Where are those kind of community empowering offerings? You don&#8217;t see them because of&#8230;</p>
<p>Two words, Disney World. </p>
<p>But more on Disney World another time&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Lethality</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83177</link>
		<dc:creator>Lethality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 03:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83177</guid>
		<description>I think the lack of official forums may have nearly single-handedly contributed to the decline of Warhammer.

Mark Jacob&#039;s &quot;McQuaid-esque&quot; dismissal of something like having official forums put him and his company squarely on the sidelines while the MMO industry ran right by them.

Jacobs should be held responsible for this decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the lack of official forums may have nearly single-handedly contributed to the decline of Warhammer.</p>
<p>Mark Jacob&#8217;s &#8220;McQuaid-esque&#8221; dismissal of something like having official forums put him and his company squarely on the sidelines while the MMO industry ran right by them.</p>
<p>Jacobs should be held responsible for this decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Why doesn't Aion's Official Site have forums? - Page 5 - AionSource.com</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83175</link>
		<dc:creator>Why doesn't Aion's Official Site have forums? - Page 5 - AionSource.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 00:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83175</guid>
		<description>[...] there was a quite timely post today over at NerfBat listing the 3 things that each forum (Official versus Unofficial) offers that the other does [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color: #444; color: #ddd; border-color: 1px solid #000; padding: 10px;">
<p>[...] there was a quite timely post today over at NerfBat listing the 3 things that each forum (Official versus Unofficial) offers that the other does [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nybling</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83171</link>
		<dc:creator>Nybling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 16:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83171</guid>
		<description>IMO, this would be a layout I would use:

News &amp; Discussions
&gt; Announcements (useful for developers or community members to post announcements to the community)
&gt; Official Threads (or something similar, but a place where people can comment on announcements without cluttering up the announcements forum)

New Player Help
&gt; Welcome! (place for new players to post help threads and such-- name is general can be changed based on game title of course!)
&gt; Free Trial Discussion (if you do have a free-trial, there should be a  place for people to talk about it!)

Customer Support/Technical Support

Gameplay Discussion
&gt; General Gameplay
&gt; Combat (I think it&#039;s important to separate combat from gameplay as a topic because combat can relate to a lot of issues that should be separately discussed from other gameplay issues, in my opinion).
&gt; Tradeskills
&gt; Dungeons (the WoW dungeon forum was pretty well used as far as I remember, haven&#039;t read up on their forums in a bit).

Then you can add a class forum area here.

Community forums here.

Server forums here (if you want to include server forums, of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO, this would be a layout I would use:</p>
<p>News &amp; Discussions<br />
&gt; Announcements (useful for developers or community members to post announcements to the community)<br />
&gt; Official Threads (or something similar, but a place where people can comment on announcements without cluttering up the announcements forum)</p>
<p>New Player Help<br />
&gt; Welcome! (place for new players to post help threads and such&#8211; name is general can be changed based on game title of course!)<br />
&gt; Free Trial Discussion (if you do have a free-trial, there should be a  place for people to talk about it!)</p>
<p>Customer Support/Technical Support</p>
<p>Gameplay Discussion<br />
&gt; General Gameplay<br />
&gt; Combat (I think it&#8217;s important to separate combat from gameplay as a topic because combat can relate to a lot of issues that should be separately discussed from other gameplay issues, in my opinion).<br />
&gt; Tradeskills<br />
&gt; Dungeons (the WoW dungeon forum was pretty well used as far as I remember, haven&#8217;t read up on their forums in a bit).</p>
<p>Then you can add a class forum area here.</p>
<p>Community forums here.</p>
<p>Server forums here (if you want to include server forums, of course).</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Shwayder</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83170</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Shwayder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 16:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83170</guid>
		<description>I also believe in trimming down the official forums as much as possible. What that trimmed-down forum set looks like is something I&#039;ve pondered about quite a bit, and I&#039;ve never fully arrived at a conclusion. The ones that are absolutely necessary are: New Player Help, Technical/Customer Support, some kind of General Discussion forum.

I&#039;d like to keep all off-topic forums off the official forums, and instead link to fansite forums to let those flourish. Maybe give the community a rating system for fan forums to alter the display order of fansite forum links so they can drive the popularity of their sites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also believe in trimming down the official forums as much as possible. What that trimmed-down forum set looks like is something I&#8217;ve pondered about quite a bit, and I&#8217;ve never fully arrived at a conclusion. The ones that are absolutely necessary are: New Player Help, Technical/Customer Support, some kind of General Discussion forum.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to keep all off-topic forums off the official forums, and instead link to fansite forums to let those flourish. Maybe give the community a rating system for fan forums to alter the display order of fansite forum links so they can drive the popularity of their sites.</p>
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		<title>By: Nybling</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83163</link>
		<dc:creator>Nybling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83163</guid>
		<description>I agree with Ferrel in terms of Technical Support.  If your game only has US-based tech support but you support say, Australia..?  Yeah, you need a place for the Aussies to go without expecting them to pay international phone fees.  And Blackguard on Mobhunter?  NOOOOEEEEZZZZ!  We should do all our complaining of Copernicus on the Nerfbat forums!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Ferrel in terms of Technical Support.  If your game only has US-based tech support but you support say, Australia..?  Yeah, you need a place for the Aussies to go without expecting them to pay international phone fees.  And Blackguard on Mobhunter?  NOOOOEEEEZZZZ!  We should do all our complaining of Copernicus on the Nerfbat forums!</p>
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		<title>By: Ferrel</title>
		<link>http://www.nerfbat.com/2009/02/06/3-things-officialunofficial-forums-do/comment-page-1/#comment-83162</link>
		<dc:creator>Ferrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nerfbat.com/?p=933#comment-83162</guid>
		<description>I think official forums also create a better interface between technical support and customers.

When I have something wrong with a product I don&#039;t naturally think &quot;let me go to the place ran by other customers.&quot; I think, &quot;I&#039;m going to the official website and finding an official technical support person.&quot;

Beyond that though I like the narrow scope official forums. Just enough to get the message across and be the central point for general discussion.

I like knowing that Blackguard will read what I&#039;m screaming than guessing. Yes, I can go over to Mobhunter to complain. Chances are, he&#039;ll see it, but perhaps not as quick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think official forums also create a better interface between technical support and customers.</p>
<p>When I have something wrong with a product I don&#8217;t naturally think &#8220;let me go to the place ran by other customers.&#8221; I think, &#8220;I&#8217;m going to the official website and finding an official technical support person.&#8221;</p>
<p>Beyond that though I like the narrow scope official forums. Just enough to get the message across and be the central point for general discussion.</p>
<p>I like knowing that Blackguard will read what I&#8217;m screaming than guessing. Yes, I can go over to Mobhunter to complain. Chances are, he&#8217;ll see it, but perhaps not as quick.</p>
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